Product Startup Podcast Episode 203: Design for Manufacturing for New Products

00:00:00 Kevin Mako: Hello, product innovators. Today we learned the importance of doing CAD design and a design for manufacturing method from a senior industrial design expert.

00:00:07 Kevin Mako: This is the Product Startup Podcast, a show to learn from top leaders in hardware product development, prototyping, manufacturing, product selling, and everything in between.

00:00:16 Kevin Mako: Hosted by Kevin Mako, the leading expert on product development for hardware startups.

00:00:22 Kevin Mako: Welcome back, everyone. Today I'm very excited to introduce Paul Davis to the show.

00:00:26 Kevin Mako: Paul is a senior industrial designer at our very own Mako Design for almost 10 years.

00:00:30 Kevin Mako: He achieved Honours status in his degree in product design engineering and industrial design at the

00:00:36 Kevin Mako: University of Edinburgh. Today, Paul is going to share some valuable knowledge for inventors,

00:00:39 Kevin Mako: startups, and small manufacturers on the difference between basic CAD and design for manufacturing.

00:00:44 Kevin Mako: Why it's so important to do design for manufacturing from the beginning of the design process

00:00:49 Kevin Mako: and best practices to designing a great product to be producible and be a big success in the market.

00:00:55 Kevin Mako: Now on to the episode.

00:00:57 Kevin Mako: This show is produced by Mako Design.

00:01:00 Kevin Mako: original firm providing end-to-end consumer product development services tailored specifically

00:01:05 Kevin Mako: to hardware startups, small manufacturers, and inventors. Take your product from idea to store shelves

00:01:11 Kevin Mako: at MakoDesign.com. Now on to the episode. Hey, Paul, welcome to the show.

00:01:17 Paul Davis: Thanks for having

00:01:18 Paul Davis: me on.

00:01:18 Kevin Mako: I'm excited to have you on the show today to talk about design for manufacturing,

00:01:23 Kevin Mako: why it's so important, not just a major differentiation between just regular designing a product idea

00:01:29 Kevin Mako: versus designing specifically for manufacturing a product, but why it's so important

00:01:34 Kevin Mako: to be considering and building in, planning for, and doing design for manufacturing early in

00:01:39 Kevin Mako: the industrial design process for a new hardware product. Before we jump into all that,

00:01:44 Kevin Mako: Paul, just give us a bit of a background of how you got to the success that you are today.

00:01:48 Paul Davis: Yeah, absolutely. So I graduated from Edinburgh and Napier University for the design,

00:01:52 Paul Davis: and there was also the engineering side as well. So not only were we designing to make something

00:01:57 Paul Davis: to look clean, sexy, and appealing for the market. We also understood the engineering

00:02:02 Paul Davis: behind it, how it's going to be made. The materials you need to use to get to market and ensuring things

00:02:07 Paul Davis: are cost-effective to make. Combining those two skill sets made a very useful degree,

00:02:13 Paul Davis: I had the privilege in Switzerland where I specialized in working on prototype design and figuring

00:02:19 Paul Davis: out the nuts and bolts before working on designing for production. So that was kind of my

00:02:25 Paul Davis: degree before I moved to Toronto in 2012.

00:02:27 Paul Davis: where I did a six-month internship at Mako before I got hired.

00:02:31 Paul Davis: So here we're at today.

00:02:33 Kevin Mako: Yeah, almost 10 years later, worked on countless amount of products, dozens upon dozens that

00:02:38 Kevin Mako: are on the shelves that people can buy today at major retailers, on Amazon, you name it.

00:02:43 Kevin Mako: Paul's name is behind many of these that you see on the shelves behind me, actually, and obviously

00:02:48 Kevin Mako: many that are in the Mako showrooms and so on across our studios.

00:02:52 Kevin Mako: So today, I really want to talk about the importance of those early stages.

00:02:57 Kevin Mako: of design. This is a really critical juncture. A lot of the time it's something, especially

00:03:01 Kevin Mako: non-technical hardware founders, don't really put a lot of emphasis on or understand the importance of

00:03:09 Kevin Mako: the early ideation and design phases, although it may seem relatively simple or, and likely is

00:03:16 Kevin Mako: relatively lower costs than maybe some of the more hardcore engineering and prototyping subsequent phases,

00:03:21 Kevin Mako: the reality behind that is this is arguably your most important phase. This is the entire platform,

00:03:26 Kevin Mako: the infrastructure, the base of everything that you do going forward.

00:03:31 Kevin Mako: Not only can it ensure that your design is great, not only can it ensure that your design is

00:03:36 Kevin Mako: manufacturable, but it will save you a lot of money as well in the development process if

00:03:41 Kevin Mako: you build it correctly from the beginning.

00:03:44 Kevin Mako: So, Paul, talk a bit about what the difference is between just roughing up some 3D CAD design

00:03:50 Kevin Mako: versus developing that industrial design and CAD design specifically for manufacturing,

00:03:56 Kevin Mako: traditional design for manufacturing logic.

00:03:59 Paul Davis: Yeah, absolutely. And just to your point that, Kev, like the main reason companies and vendors

00:04:03 Paul Davis: come to Mako for help is they want their products in store shelves. They don't want to paint a pretty

00:04:07 Paul Davis: PDF picture and go, hey, I'm happy now, you know. So our goal is to really, on the early stage of CAD,

00:04:13 Paul Davis: where we're just conceptualizing, here's how we want it to look in the future. This is the main

00:04:18 Paul Davis: goal all the way through to, okay, this product is now manufacturable. We've considered the

00:04:23 Paul Davis: materials. We've considered the surface fitness.

00:04:26 Paul Davis: the textures, how this part is actually going to be physically made.

00:04:30 Paul Davis: When we are working on the early stage concept CAD design, that CAD file, we will use all the way

00:04:35 Paul Davis: through to the final production unit. So talk about that more detail. The concept design is typically just

00:04:42 Paul Davis: this is how it's going to look from an external standpoint. When we move into prototyping rounds,

00:04:48 Paul Davis: we're looking at potentially doing three prototypes, including like a nice, clean, simple

00:04:53 Paul Davis: mock up to get an idea of form factor and how this part could work.

00:04:56 Paul Davis: through to a more mechanical, detailed, pre-production prototype where we're kind of ironed out

00:05:01 Paul Davis: the kinks. We know what this thing is going to feel, the form factor, the ergonomics, the mechanics

00:05:06 Paul Davis: of the part. Pretty much dialed in. From experience, my most successful products on the market

00:05:10 Paul Davis: are the simple ones. They don't have many bells and whistles, which you've probably had in the

00:05:15 Paul Davis: podcast a few times. It's simple to make. They're easy to make. Tooling costs are low. That can get your

00:05:20 Paul Davis: first product off the ground and running. You've highlighted a couple of really important things in there.

00:05:25 Kevin Mako: First of all, designing for simplicity. That is a key element of design for manufacturing

00:05:31 Kevin Mako: and something, again, that is typically overlooked by non-technical founders or first-time founders

00:05:35 Kevin Mako: for hardware startups. When you think of your original product idea, first thing comes to mind

00:05:40 Kevin Mako: as all these bells and whistles and accessories and variety of different features that could be

00:05:45 Kevin Mako: added into the product. But the reality, especially as a hardware startup, is simplicity equal success.

00:05:51 Kevin Mako: So the more that you can factor in reducing features,

00:05:55 Kevin Mako: But focusing on quality of the fewer features that you have, that's how you get a great starting

00:06:00 Kevin Mako: product to market. We talk a lot about MVP on the show, minimum viable product. And it's really

00:06:06 Kevin Mako: important to understand, especially in the hardware space, and which is very different than software,

00:06:10 Kevin Mako: is MVP means that, yes, you've reduced features, but of the fewer features you have,

00:06:14 Kevin Mako: you focus on quality. And that is really instrumental in terms of the design. And that

00:06:20 Kevin Mako: happens all the way back into the original ideation and first

00:06:24 Kevin Mako: CAD modeling that you do. You start obviously with some basic form and structured feature

00:06:29 Kevin Mako: sets, et cetera, that's built through sketching and a variety of other tools and processes that we have

00:06:33 Kevin Mako: in our tool belt to pull the idea onto paper and to make sure that it's a really good product market

00:06:38 Kevin Mako: fit. But when you've got through that portion of it, you start actually building the CAD, you want to be

00:06:43 Kevin Mako: thinking about how you're actually designing that CAD to be a producible product in the end.

00:06:49 Kevin Mako: And that's something as well that you mentioned, Paul. The second thing that I like that you highlighted

00:06:52 Kevin Mako: there is utilizing the software and the technology and the knowledge right from your

00:06:58 Kevin Mako: initial CAD model all the way through to manufacturing, because that is also a big difference. You don't

00:07:03 Kevin Mako: want to start with just roughing up, let's call it computer graphics or computer game software to

00:07:08 Kevin Mako: visualize and interpret your actual 3D model because you're already past that face. Now, when you're

00:07:14 Kevin Mako: building your CAD model, do it right from the beginning. So you build it in global caliber

00:07:19 Kevin Mako: manufacturing CAD software so that the foundation.

00:07:22 Kevin Mako: is strong. And as you go through your prototyping faces, you're tweaking and refining and

00:07:26 Kevin Mako: perfecting that model all the way through to and including production and even including

00:07:30 Kevin Mako: scaling up production. That model is the exact same CAD model, just obviously modified and

00:07:36 Kevin Mako: improved as it goes through these various steps. So, Paul, talk about a few of the actual manufacturing

00:07:42 Kevin Mako: considerations when you're designing the product. I want to get a bit more into the details here in terms

00:07:47 Kevin Mako: of like parts, materials, OEM versus non, custom, et cetera, that sort of stuff that really

00:07:52 Kevin Mako: drives some of that design for manufacturing logic into your original industrial design

00:07:57 Kevin Mako: CAD models.

00:07:59 Paul Davis: Yeah, absolutely.

00:07:59 Paul Davis: And to your point about using the same software from the very beginning, it gives us the

00:08:04 Paul Davis: opportunity to really focus on how this part or product is going to be made from a very early stage.

00:08:12 Paul Davis: We don't have to always go full detail right away, but we do have the ability to be like, okay,

00:08:18 Paul Davis: we can get the dimensions rough then.

00:08:20 Paul Davis: We know exactly how big this.

00:08:22 Paul Davis: part will be considering future manufacturing processes. It doesn't always have to be,

00:08:28 Paul Davis: I call it a blue sky design. This thought, it was engineering fought behind it already from an early stage.

00:08:33 Paul Davis: I always like to tell my clients that we still have to go through prototyping, but we are thinking

00:08:38 Paul Davis: about how this part's going to be made in the future from the get-go. They always kind of feel more

00:08:42 Paul Davis: confident knowing that we're not just painting a PDF is what I usually say. It's like we're

00:08:46 Paul Davis: actually putting thought behind it. And the engineering team that we have on board is the skills across

00:08:50 Paul Davis: the border just with one next level. So we're very, very lucky to have the tools and resources

00:08:55 Paul Davis: on site to do that. So, but to your point, talking more towards what changes need to be made

00:09:00 Paul Davis: moving into CAD. This is where we really get in the nitty-gritty and detailing of the CAD model,

00:09:06 Paul Davis: where it really depends from experience. Typically, I either work alongside that tooling engineer,

00:09:12 Paul Davis: and they'll send the CAD back with the CAD changes that they need made in order to make it suitable

00:09:17 Paul Davis: for manufacturing. So to your point, Kevin, about the manufacturing concept.

00:09:20 Paul Davis: considerations in the early stages of the concept CAD design, we get to the stage where at the end

00:09:25 Paul Davis: of the day, we want this product to be cost-effective to make. Does that mean we have to use off-the-shelf

00:09:29 Paul Davis: parts? Does that mean we have to use a certain material or manufacturing process to achieve that?

00:09:35 Paul Davis: These are the type of mechanical things and manufacturing things we're thinking about from an early

00:09:40 Paul Davis: stage. So I can use our product as an example. We knew this part was going to be injection molded

00:09:45 Paul Davis: from ABS plastic, for example. And we knew that we had the rough end.

00:09:50 Paul Davis: CAD from the original concept. Prototyping CAD was good, but now we have to make an

00:09:55 Paul Davis: injection molding tool for this. How do we do that? We have to consider many factors. Draft angles

00:10:00 Paul Davis: need to be considered when we're talking about injection molded parts. Depending on the size of the

00:10:05 Paul Davis: part or the size of the tool, the draft angle can have an impact on the overall final appearance

00:10:11 Paul Davis: of the part. So we have to consider that from an early stage as well. Is this part interlocking

00:10:16 Paul Davis: into a second piece? We have to look at tolerances. We have to look at how this

00:10:20 Paul Davis: parts going to be fastened through a second piece. So from an early stage, we're considering

00:10:24 Paul Davis: are we using OEM parts? Are we using custom parts? What can we get away with to make sure that

00:10:30 Paul Davis: we're making a cost-effective design to mass produce? Because that is our end goal. Our goal is to

00:10:36 Paul Davis: ensure our clients are making cost-effective and quality designs for them to move into mass production.

00:10:41 Paul Davis: And it all starts from that original CAD design, where we're always considering

00:10:44 Paul Davis: in these form factors and manufacturing constraints moving forward into more refined CAD.

00:10:50 Kevin Mako: Yeah, that's so important, especially to do from the early design phases, because if you can think

00:10:54 Kevin Mako: of all these elements and understand how they all fit together, then it makes it exponentially easier as you

00:11:00 Kevin Mako: jump into prototyping to isolate certain things that you can't tell. What are some of the unique facets

00:11:05 Kevin Mako: of this product that we really have to test in order to ensure and just focus on improving those things?

00:11:12 Kevin Mako: The other things we know, we've already designed it for manufacturing, we've got good quality parts

00:11:16 Kevin Mako: and all of the elements of draft angles and part tolerances.

00:11:20 Kevin Mako: and materials specification documents, et cetera, are solid.

00:11:23 Kevin Mako: But if we drill down into the parts that we're really not sure of, maybe something connects,

00:11:28 Kevin Mako: is there a weak point?

00:11:29 Kevin Mako: What are the stress points?

00:11:30 Kevin Mako: It allows us to hyper-isolate on those things as we move into prototyping phases so that we're

00:11:35 Kevin Mako: not testing a whole variety of random things and we're isolating on really just the breakpoints

00:11:40 Kevin Mako: or the unknowns.

00:11:41 Kevin Mako: And that's how you can create a great product because every product is unique.

00:11:44 Kevin Mako: Even if it's a relatively simple product, there's going to be a handful of custom things on that

00:11:49 Kevin Mako: product that is unique to you that will have its own challenges that need to be solved.

00:11:54 Kevin Mako: It's always the case with really any hardware product.

00:11:57 Kevin Mako: So as you get into the prototyping phase, if you've really built out a strong CAD model with

00:12:02 Kevin Mako: a lot of the redundancies built in from day one, then it allows you really to build the best

00:12:07 Kevin Mako: possible product also considering cost.

00:12:09 Kevin Mako: So you're both focusing on quality and cost at the same time.

00:12:12 Kevin Mako: So fundamentally, building the platform strong is extremely helpful.

00:12:15 Paul Davis: I always see the clients early on and something scares them off, but

00:12:18 Paul Davis: nine times out of ten that doesn't is you don't want to go into your product development

00:12:25 Paul Davis: journey and jump straight to production.

00:12:27 Paul Davis: I know this touches more on the prototyping side, but you don't want to drop, say, 50K on

00:12:34 Paul Davis: tooling for a hinge not to work, for example.

00:12:37 Paul Davis: It's very hard to change tooling once you've committed to it.

00:12:40 Paul Davis: So prototype, prototype, prototype until you get to the stage where you're really confident

00:12:44 Paul Davis: and then that's where we start to dissect the CAD, get it manufactured already.

00:12:48 Paul Davis: We talk to engineers, these tooling experts don't what they're talking about,

00:12:52 Paul Davis: and we can get a really nice production of ongoing.

00:12:55 Paul Davis: I also like to mention that even when you do get to the stage where you're made tooling for your part,

00:13:00 Paul Davis: they're not just going to pump out your first 1,000 units.

00:13:03 Paul Davis: You will get to see a production sample to make any final adjustments that you want to make.

00:13:08 Paul Davis: Do one final checkover and make sure you're happy.

00:13:11 Paul Davis: Because that's that question I get asked a lot.

00:13:13 Paul Davis: It's like, that's it.

00:13:14 Paul Davis: We're going to just make a thousand units and we're selling them now.

00:13:17 Paul Davis: It's like, no, no, you have time.

00:13:18 Paul Davis: You have time to have a look.

00:13:21 Paul Davis: Ideally, you don't have to make any changes at that point because it can be,

00:13:24 Paul Davis: there's a lot more complex to make tooling changes.

00:13:27 Paul Davis: But it's always nice to know that you will have that final unit in your hand before you

00:13:31 Paul Davis: pull the trigger.

00:13:32 Kevin Mako: Yeah, I mean, that's always a super helpful pace.

00:13:34 Kevin Mako: It's usually an exciting thing.

00:13:35 Kevin Mako: And this whole thing comes around the theme is if you invest a little bit more up front

00:13:39 Kevin Mako: for every phase following, it makes those phases easier, faster, smoother.

00:13:44 Kevin Mako: If you look at the life cycle of a product from Sketch all the way through to

00:13:48 Kevin Mako: scaling up production.

00:13:50 Kevin Mako: Those who really designed and built and thought the product through early

00:13:54 Kevin Mako: are going to spend exponentially less than those that thought they were saving money by cutting

00:14:00 Kevin Mako: corners.

00:14:01 Kevin Mako: Those corners that you cut become way more expensive down the road.

00:14:06 Kevin Mako: And although a lot of people like to pass the buck forward when they think it, you know,

00:14:11 Kevin Mako: makes sense to save a couple bucks today, just know that at some point that day is going to

00:14:15 Kevin Mako: arrive.

00:14:16 Kevin Mako: And it's going to be a very problematic and difficult day.

00:14:18 Kevin Mako: There's already enough challenges in developing a new product.

00:14:21 Kevin Mako: So if you do it well, then you can seriously eliminate the vast majority of those challenges,

00:14:26 Kevin Mako: again, so that you can isolate on the very few unique, specialized challenges to really

00:14:32 Kevin Mako: create amazing IP in a great product.

00:14:34 Kevin Mako: That's what makes for an amazing product.

00:14:35 Kevin Mako: You've thought both about the user, but also the manufacturability, the quality standpoint,

00:14:41 Kevin Mako: and simplicity of the product, especially as a hardware startup.

00:14:44 Kevin Mako: One of the things that we typically drill down on in the actual actual.

00:14:48 Kevin Mako: industrial design phase is what we call concept mechanical.

00:14:52 Kevin Mako: And this is where you're not just doing typical visual design, but the mechanical engineering

00:14:58 Kevin Mako: that actually builds the foundation of the product as well underneath.

00:15:01 Kevin Mako: And that's a lot of the concepts we're talking about are looped into this overarching

00:15:05 Kevin Mako: concept of concept mechanical engineering, essentially building out as much of the

00:15:10 Kevin Mako: internal mechanics and ribbing, et cetera, that builds, let's call it the internal

00:15:14 Kevin Mako: skeleton of the project, so that the external works well.

00:15:18 Kevin Mako: The features, functions, et cetera.

00:15:20 Kevin Mako: Now, it's not exactly as clear cut as that.

00:15:22 Kevin Mako: Sometimes the external is the internal is the internal, but the point being is that you've got to focus

00:15:26 Kevin Mako: both on function, aesthetics, sexiness, modernness, as well as detailed engineering,

00:15:32 Kevin Mako: engineering, engineering, planning, part procurement, et cetera, so that you have both

00:15:36 Kevin Mako: in order to really manufacture great product.

00:15:39 Paul Davis: You're finding that balance.

00:15:40 Paul Davis: You want to spend the function.

00:15:42 Paul Davis: You want it to be quality.

00:15:43 Paul Davis: You want to be cost effective.

00:15:44 Paul Davis: But you also want it to be eye pop.

00:15:46 Paul Davis: You want people that want to buy this.

00:15:47 Paul Davis: Once you strike.

00:15:48 Paul Davis: that perfect balance between aesthetics, function, quality, cost effective.

00:15:53 Paul Davis: You can really, really build on that first product.

00:15:55 Paul Davis: And that's when it gets exciting.

00:15:57 Paul Davis: That's definitely the perks of this job is getting it to that stage.

00:16:00 Paul Davis: The seeing client success stories.

00:16:02 Paul Davis: It's heartwarming.

00:16:03 Kevin Mako: That's one of the most beautiful parts of the job.

00:16:06 Kevin Mako: It's that transition from, you put all this work into all that development, design, engineering,

00:16:11 Kevin Mako: prototyping, getting everything prepared for manufacturing, getting manufacturing set up,

00:16:16 Kevin Mako: doing the production sample, making sure that.

00:16:18 Kevin Mako: that production sample is perfect based on everything that's been done up to that point

00:16:21 Kevin Mako: in time, and then actually seeing your units start to hit the shell.

00:16:25 Kevin Mako: So that really is a special moment.

00:16:27 Kevin Mako: I like how you put it, heartwarming.

00:16:29 Kevin Mako: That's the perfect way to describe it because it's really a magical moment where you go from

00:16:34 Kevin Mako: investing into the business to now starting to flip the switch.

00:16:37 Kevin Mako: It'd be like, okay, let's start scaling up sales.

00:16:39 Kevin Mako: Let's start monetizing this, start making money and bringing it in.

00:16:43 Kevin Mako: And then expanding the brand.

00:16:45 Kevin Mako: And I think what's so amazing, especially for first-time founders,

00:16:48 Kevin Mako: Once you understand the process of how to design develop a product well from the beginning,

00:16:54 Kevin Mako: you see it go through, you see it come to life, all of a sudden, it enhances your ability of a founder

00:17:00 Kevin Mako: to execute on those ideas, not just on the first product that you developed, but from there,

00:17:07 Kevin Mako: you almost always inevitably start coming up with the pro version or the accessories for this

00:17:12 Kevin Mako: or different markets for the product.

00:17:15 Kevin Mako: And then that is how really brands start.

00:17:17 Kevin Mako: If you look at all the world's major hardware brands, they started somewhere.

00:17:21 Kevin Mako: They almost always started one relatively simple product that solved a very important pain point

00:17:27 Kevin Mako: for a handful of people.

00:17:28 Kevin Mako: And then from there, they scaled.

00:17:30 Kevin Mako: And that's the best way that you can look at a hardware startup especially is start small.

00:17:35 Kevin Mako: We talk about MVP, strip down the features, spend less with your industrial design firm on less

00:17:40 Kevin Mako: features, but of the features that you do, make sure you nail those out of the part.

00:17:44 Kevin Mako: High quality, cost effective, built to global standards.

00:17:47 Kevin Mako: all of the rest that we talk about.

00:17:48 Kevin Mako: And if you do it that way, you have an amazing product that hits the market.

00:17:52 Kevin Mako: You start to scale that and then you start developing your next iterations or inventions.

00:17:56 Kevin Mako: Or if the product continues to sell and you just want to focus on sales, sales,

00:18:00 Kevin Mako: sales, and profitability, then you ride that wave, sometimes for years.

00:18:03 Kevin Mako: People will ride one product for decades.

00:18:06 Kevin Mako: So it's totally up to you as the founder.

00:18:09 Kevin Mako: And obviously, the hard work's going into that.

00:18:11 Kevin Mako: But I think the biggest point of this podcast is start early on that process,

00:18:15 Kevin Mako: start early doing things the right way.

00:18:17 Kevin Mako: And that smooths everything out for you going down the channel and getting that business off the ground.

00:18:22 Paul Davis: Yeah, honestly, like, it really is the reason I love working at Mako.

00:18:26 Paul Davis: A lot of success stories.

00:18:27 Paul Davis: And being able to actually purchase something from a store that you made is always really rewarding.

00:18:32 Paul Davis: So I look forward to many more projects.

00:18:34 Paul Davis: And like you mentioned, like, come up a nice, simple idea.

00:18:38 Paul Davis: It may be sound too simple at the start, but you'll get there.

00:18:40 Paul Davis: Although we have a wide range of diverse products, I've brought textile products to market,

00:18:45 Paul Davis: mechanical handheld tools.

00:18:49 Paul Davis: They all have one thing in common, and it's the disk keep it nice and simple, few parts and very easy

00:18:53 Paul Davis: to manufacture.

00:18:54 Paul Davis: I think if you take those three boxes, you are setting yourself up for success.

00:18:58 Paul Davis: It's really rewarding to get to that stage.

00:19:01 Kevin Mako: Well, Paul, thanks so much for all your words of wisdom.

00:19:03 Paul Davis: Thanks for having me, Ken.

00:19:04 Paul Davis: Absolutely pleasure.

00:19:04 Kevin Mako: Thanks, Paul.

00:19:05 Kevin Mako: I appreciate being on the show.

00:19:06 Kevin Mako: We'll talk again soon.

00:19:07 Kevin Mako: Cheers.

00:19:08 Kevin Mako: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Product Startup Podcast.

00:19:12 Kevin Mako: If you found some value in the show, please do us a huge favor and hit the light.

00:19:15 Kevin Mako: button and subscribe. If you have any questions, guest suggestions, or anything else,

00:19:20 Kevin Mako: feel free to reach out to us anytime at our email, podcast at MakoDesign.com. This show is hosted

00:19:27 Kevin Mako: by Kevin Mako, North America's leading expert on product development for hardware startups.

00:19:32 Kevin Mako: And the podcast is produced by Mako Design, the original firm providing end-to-end consumer

00:19:38 Kevin Mako: product development services tailored specifically to hardware startups, small manufacturers,

00:19:42 Kevin Mako: and inventors. Take your product from idea to store.

00:19:45 Kevin Mako: shelves at MakoDesign.com. That's M-A-K-O-Design.com. Thanks for joining and see you again soon.