Product Startup Podcast Episode 139: Scale a Product in Retail Stores

00:00:00 Kevin Mako: Hello, product innovators. Today we learn from a 30-year expert on product sales strategy on how to scale your product in retail stores.

00:00:10 Narrator: You're listening to the Product Startup Podcast, the show that helps bring your product idea to life by chatting with successful inventors,

00:00:19 Narrator: product developers, manufacturers, and hardware industry professionals. Our goal here is to get to the bottom of what makes a product successful, from initial

00:00:28 Narrator: idea to getting your product on store shelves. We're taking you step by step to build. a functional product and scale your product business, hosted

00:00:37 Narrator: by Kevin Mako, one of North America's leading experts on hardware development for small product businesses. Now, onto the show.

00:00:47 Kevin Mako: Welcome back, everyone. Today, I'm very excited to introduce Marc Inkol to the show. Mark is the

00:00:51 Kevin Mako: president of Explorer Research, a North American Shopper Research consulting firm that works with

00:00:55 Kevin Mako: emerging physical product brands and massive product companies like Walmart, Kraft, Google, Pepsi Unilever, and many others. Mark has spent 30 years in the

00:01:03 Kevin Mako: retail industry, including leading divisions at Kraft and Maple Leaf. Today, Mark is going to share

00:01:08 Kevin Mako: some valuable knowledge how inventors, startups, and small manufacturers can develop and position

00:01:11 Kevin Mako: your product for big success at retail stores, how to captivate buyers while on the shelf and how to scale your brand via retail stores. Now, on to the episode.

00:01:22 Kevin Mako: Hey, Mark, welcome to the show. Thank you. Appreciate it. I appreciate being on the show.

00:01:26 Marc Inkol: I noticed that we went to the same business school, the Ivy Business School at different times.

00:01:30 Kevin Mako: A little different times, but yeah, great school, great experience. Loved it. Well, I'm really excited to have you on on the show today.

00:01:36 Kevin Mako: I've got a tremendous amount of experience in retail, working with major brands, both as working for them and also in your research consultancy

00:01:45 Kevin Mako: now that works with all kinds of incredible brands, incredible products around the world, primarily in the USA and Canada. So I'm excited

00:01:53 Kevin Mako: today to talk about some of the lessons from retail, but also starting with innovations lessons that you've seen over the 30-year history.

00:02:00 Marc Inkol: Before we jump into it all, just give us a bit of a background of how you got to where you are today. Like you mentioned, same with you as a business school graduate out of Ivy.

00:02:07 Marc Inkol: And then I entered the business world and spent about half my career working in food side of it. Major companies like craft and stuff like that. I worked my way up.

00:02:15 Marc Inkol: As I worked my way up, I became learn how to manage division as well as heading up to the strategy and the development

00:02:21 Marc Inkol: side of it. So really got to get a good understanding in terms of the mechanic around business. So like

00:02:26 Marc Inkol: when a lot of you guys out there right now in terms of kind of figuring out how do you kind of grow, how to kind of scale your business.

00:02:32 Marc Inkol: Whether or not it's a big company like Kraft or somebody small, it's the same principles. And I found that then after I left Kraft, I started out because I really loved innovation.

00:02:42 Marc Inkol: And one of my last jobs there was head of the strategy in the innovation or development group and really loved innovation.

00:02:48 Marc Inkol: But I always found that sometimes it's really limited in terms of how companies do it. And particularly, it just wasn't totally fulfilling for me from a craft standpoint.

00:02:57 Marc Inkol: So I really wanted to kind of go out and do it differently. And so that's how we set up Explorer. Explorers kind of set up to really get to that meaningful nugget, really trying to

00:03:06 Marc Inkol: focus in on what's that insight that's going to derive the success. And that's how we started out.

00:03:11 Marc Inkol: We started out working with some of the big companies like Kraft and Coke and Pepsi and stuff like that in terms of doing innovation around that.

00:03:19 Marc Inkol: And Google is another one we've done work with over the years and just trying to figure out what's the best process to go through.

00:03:25 Marc Inkol: So a lot of times I transferred my skills from big company into. working with other organizations. And then it was interesting.

00:03:33 Marc Inkol: I often looked at myself as really good at observation. I think from a strategic skill standpoint, you really kind of need that. Sometimes you need to

00:03:40 Marc Inkol: kind of rise above in terms of what you're doing. I went from big company to an entrepreneur. I was talking to your both just prior to the cast here.

00:03:48 Marc Inkol: And you were talking about how do we both start it up? All the trials and tribulations around that. So really identify more now as an

00:03:56 Marc Inkol: entrepreneur. So in terms of what it takes to grow a business and scale a business. And so oftentimes where we go now is what we do at Explore.

00:04:04 Marc Inkol: We help people really often test products in terms of concepts. But I think what we do differently is we also help with the strategy part of it. I think it's been in my DNA.

00:04:13 Marc Inkol: And whether companies, bigger, small in terms of whatever innovations that we test, that's kind of a mantra for us, is that how do you grow? Like, what are the things that

00:04:21 Marc Inkol: are important? So it's not only the what, but it's the how kind of going forward. So that's how we've kind of grown and explore.

00:04:28 Marc Inkol: We have offices, like you said, in Chicago and Toronto. A lot of our work primary on a North American basis.

00:04:33 Marc Inkol: So whether or not it's big companies or big retailers, like a Walmart, CVS, Target,

00:04:39 Marc Inkol: Loblaws in Canada, Metro, Shoppers Drugmark, those types of things, are really small startup firms. So we really understand the broad spectrum.

00:04:47 Marc Inkol: And I think, as you mentioned earlier, is that the rules of being successful are pretty universal in terms of going down that path.

00:04:54 Marc Inkol: You may go faster or quicker some people, but they're pretty universal kind of going forward. We wanted to focus in on the innovation side as it relates to

00:05:02 Kevin Mako: retailers. That's even more so, I think, in terms of lessons learned around that. Well, let's dig

00:05:07 Kevin Mako: into it because I'm excited to hear your experience on what those success factors are. Imagine yourself in the shoes of a hardware startup.

00:05:14 Kevin Mako: You've got this new either consumer package good invention or physical hardware invention. You're trying to get into the retailers and succeed. Talk about

00:05:22 Kevin Mako: about some of those success metrics that you see starting from the innovation stage all the way up through selling and then scaling their brand.

00:05:28 Kevin Mako: I really like to hear those 30 years of experience

00:05:30 Marc Inkol: and figure out what those success metrics are for the startups or the scale ups that are listening

00:05:35 Marc Inkol: in today. Whether or not we're talking 10 years, 20 years, 30 years ago is that when we step back, what is it?

00:05:41 Marc Inkol: I think that's a lot of it is really comes down to a process in terms of how you innovate from a process standpoint. But also think what's happened now is that the market is now

00:05:51 Marc Inkol: online in terms of buying a product or you go to a bricks of mortar in terms of a buying product there, just the amount of choice that's out there right now.

00:05:58 Marc Inkol: So if you're in a category, whether or not you go, well, who are my competitors? And often with hard goods, I go, well, I got somebody over in the Middle East.

00:06:06 Marc Inkol: I got somebody in Europe. I got somebody in South America because they're now selling on a global basis where even 20 years ago, like that wasn't the case.

00:06:14 Marc Inkol: So your level of competition, I think, is really increased measureably. We say that the consumer

00:06:21 Marc Inkol: right now, more than ever before, has the power now. With big companies, you would think that

00:06:27 Marc Inkol: they have the power, like a Microsoft or somebody like that, but it really comes down to the consumer. Their ability, because they have so much choice, how they kind of direct

00:06:34 Marc Inkol: their attention towards the choices out there is really fundamental. I'll give you a food reference is that

00:06:40 Marc Inkol: the average store, let's 20 years ago, was a size of a CVS. Today, it's a massive warehouse.

00:06:46 Marc Inkol: They went from like 15,000 products in the store, skews to 45 to 60,000. But their level of choice, the average consumer, hasn't remained the same in terms of

00:06:56 Marc Inkol: you're only buying about two or three hundred products out of those stores a year. Why I bring that up is that oftentimes we think more choice is better.

00:07:04 Marc Inkol: And so what ends up happening is that it actually makes it more complex for a lot of people. What we do from a research standpoint, we look at conscious choice.

00:07:12 Marc Inkol: We also look at the subconscious choice, okay? And why this is important is that majority of the products out

00:07:19 Marc Inkol: there, okay, are not even seen by the average consumer. There's just so much out there right now. We have a thing that otherwise our brains would explode.

00:07:29 Marc Inkol: Subconsciously, we have a mechanism that deselects. Your ability then to really kind of stand out, really being crystal clear on what your selling proposition

00:07:39 Marc Inkol: is and meaningful. Oftentimes,

00:07:42 Marc Inkol: we have challenges when we're testing products that they're different, but they're not meaningful. So we look for unique, because there's too much focus on

00:07:51 Marc Inkol: uniqueness. And I know sometimes you guys, in terms of when you get into stuff, is that you really want to make a cool. What happens is that you may add some features in terms

00:08:00 Marc Inkol: of some of these product ideas that aren't necessarily primary. And what ends up happening is it kind of clutters in terms of what you're trying to sell.

00:08:09 Marc Inkol: So I think a key message is that simple is better, simple design, having a concept that's really easy to understand.

00:08:18 Marc Inkol: And we're on the thing from a retail standpoint. Let me ask you a question.

00:08:22 Kevin Mako: How long do you think the average person looks at a package when they're in a store?

00:08:26 Marc Inkol: It must be extremely quick. I mean, if they even happen to see it, five seconds is that? The average person looks at a front panel less than two seconds. Wow. Okay.

00:08:36 Marc Inkol: And the average shelf, only about 15 to 20 percent of a shelf is viewed. So think about that.

00:08:44 Marc Inkol: If I've got something that it's not really clear in terms of what you're selling, only 15% of the shelf is being viewed.

00:08:51 Marc Inkol: And we use what's called eye tracking, which the eyes don't lie. The eyes really kind of scan a shelf. We look at subconscious behavior and eye tracking is one of them.

00:08:59 Marc Inkol: So we'll put somebody into a situation and have them scan a section or have them scan a shelf. And like I said, 15 to 20% of a shelf is viewed.

00:09:08 Marc Inkol: And then out of that, the chances of somebody looking at what you're trying to sell is less than two seconds. And then if you really look at, the average person reads about

00:09:18 Marc Inkol: 220 words a minute, that's about five or six words. So in that time, you've got to say who you are, what you sell, and why

00:09:26 Marc Inkol: better. And if you really kind of look at it from that lens standpoint, this whole thing about

00:09:32 Marc Inkol: being laser focused in terms of what you're selling is incredibly important because more often

00:09:39 Marc Inkol: than not, it will get clients come back saying, we've got the best product. And this This guy's products is nowhere near, but they outsell us.

00:09:47 Marc Inkol: When we do the research, we find, well, they're so laser focus in terms of their proposition that the consumers get it, okay?

00:09:55 Marc Inkol: And I think as much as you're trying to say better is more. I think more, I say more features.

00:10:02 Marc Inkol: More is you really got to look at what your primary need states are and deliver against that because innovation for us in a lot of ways is corporately

00:10:11 Marc Inkol: it's almost like a one-off. is that sometimes in a larger organization, what will end up happening is that somebody

00:10:16 Marc Inkol: will get on that desk and they'll innovate for 12 or 18 months and then move off to something else. I know you guys are startups.

00:10:23 Marc Inkol: You've got a little bit more longer term focus on that, but you can't lose the sight of that because innovation to me is if you really look at your

00:10:31 Marc Inkol: critical needs in terms of who you're going after and what those things are, that has to be a lifelong pursuit and making it better.

00:10:38 Marc Inkol: I heard once, you know, there's a discussion about developers with an Apple developer and another competitor developer. And the competitor basically

00:10:46 Marc Inkol: came up and he said, yeah, we're better with screens now on our phones, this, that and the other. And the Apple guy said, for now.

00:10:52 Marc Inkol: And I thought that was compelling because it's not a point in time. It is something that is more longitudinal that you constantly got to be working on your

00:11:02 Marc Inkol: competitiveness. And it's easier in a lot of ways to focus on fewer

00:11:06 Kevin Mako: and do it better than broader and then do it not as well. This is so powerful because on the design side, at our design firm, we have a slogan,

00:11:15 Kevin Mako: brilliantly simple design. The reason for this is for many reasons on the development side, easier, quicker to get to production,

00:11:24 Kevin Mako: simpler to design, less expensive, less defects, less warranty issues, happier clients. It's amazing because it's truly a double-edged sword.

00:11:32 Kevin Mako: We talk about it from a development standpoint, especially because startups generally, they're on a time budget and they're on a financial budget.

00:11:38 Kevin Mako: it. So we really have a tight window to succeed on their what we call one or two absolute core features.

00:11:45 Kevin Mako: And we should really be laser focused, especially in hardware, because you can't bug fix it to make those features be done at an incredibly high global standard.

00:11:53 Kevin Mako: It's the only way that you can get away with it. Now, of course, as you get into feature creep, you end up focusing on too many things.

00:11:58 Kevin Mako: And not only are the things adding costs, but now there's interrelated dependencies and all that sort of stuff that can

00:12:02 Kevin Mako: balloon out the project, never even get to production, never even get to the shelves. Most of the time, a smart start. up gets that.

00:12:09 Kevin Mako: And they focus on their core features, primarily for the development purposes, to get themselves to production, to get to that next level. However, now you're talking about

00:12:17 Kevin Mako: the sales side and talking about not only have you really succeeded on getting your product

00:12:21 Kevin Mako: to be a better quality and quicker and faster to market with less defects, but in conjunction, you've made it exponentially easier to sell.

00:12:30 Kevin Mako: And that's from your experience working with all kinds of retailers, all kinds of products. It really is the golden ticket. Feature creep is the

00:12:38 Kevin Mako: killer of startups in the hardware space. And it is also for really no actual tangible purpose,

00:12:44 Kevin Mako: even though we understand fully that it's really tough as an inventor because you want to add

00:12:47 Kevin Mako: all these ideas and all this vision and capture all these different markets that you can see this product potentially fitting on, losing track of your, as you call it, your

00:12:55 Kevin Mako: primary focus, and instead you end up putting time, effort and budget into secondary focus things, which then make it difficult to sell.

00:13:03 Kevin Mako: So why do it? Strip it down to that core innovation. And then I really like how you mentioned as well, and also this is helpful for that. When you get your product to market,

00:13:11 Kevin Mako: consider continually innovating on that, but not necessarily to be adding features, to be adding

00:13:17 Kevin Mako: clarity, simplicity, quality, that clear message so that you can expand your market but becoming

00:13:23 Marc Inkol: the clearest, easiest to understand, easiest to sell product, not necessarily the most feature rich product on the shelves. A thousand percent agree.

00:13:31 Marc Inkol: And then the other thing you got to know about feature creep is that that is a big company strategy. And you go, well, what does that mean?

00:13:39 Marc Inkol: When I worked at a big company, if a startup came and came at me and start nibbling at our share, what we would do is we would add features.

00:13:48 Marc Inkol: It was called a competitive covering move, okay, from a strategy standpoint. So it's easy for a big established company to maintain their share

00:13:58 Marc Inkol: by covering options or adding options to cover off startups or incumbents coming at people, don't play the big company game.

00:14:07 Marc Inkol: Play your game into exactly what you just said is that fewer, better, bigger, stronger is the way to kind of scale. Because the other thing,

00:14:15 Marc Inkol: when you go into a retailer and you say, well, what am I selling? It's got to be powerfully unique and meaningful.

00:14:22 Marc Inkol: If you're trying to do that across five benefits versus one or two, the chances are they'll go, it's going to cost you. It's going to cost you. a lot of money to get listed.

00:14:30 Marc Inkol: Oftentimes, that's not part of the equation, but getting listed in some of these like a Best Buy or something like that, there's an incredible cost to that.

00:14:38 Marc Inkol: And it's advantageous for big companies to use their clout to kind of block companies like yourself if the product is similar.

00:14:46 Kevin Mako: So that's why this powerful, unique and meaningful proposition is vital, I think, for you guys to get your products on the shelves.

00:14:54 Kevin Mako: So let's talk about what happens when you're on the shelves and you're trying to scale. I know you've done a tremendous amount of work in this exact sphere.

00:15:03 Kevin Mako: You use a lot of stuff on metrics and such. Just explain a bit about how retail works and what are some of the important metrics

00:15:10 Marc Inkol: that an emerging startup that's getting into retail and starting to scale in retail should think about the best position their unique and meaningful product on the shelf.

00:15:20 Marc Inkol: Great question. I think the first thing when you go in is that we're so focused on, well, I've got to make it work. I've got to make it really relevant and attractive.

00:15:28 Marc Inkol: to the consumer. Well, the next phase is you really got to look at, well, the retailer, it's a business. How do I make money? So really making sure that the whole thing around your

00:15:37 Marc Inkol: proposition is really well thought out. And so it's a bit of a hackney example, but shark tank in terms of going on, you're looking at those shows.

00:15:44 Marc Inkol: If you really listen to what they're saying, they're saying, how do I make money? The retailers are doing the same thing. How do I make money? How do I scale this?

00:15:52 Marc Inkol: How does this fit into my system? So now it comes a whole different set of issues around

00:15:57 Marc Inkol: packaging around how well from a supply chain standpoint can kind of get into the system because they've got really set protocols and you really got to make sure that

00:16:07 Marc Inkol: your product can kind of torture test it through their system. So you're not getting a lot of shrink or product loss in terms of kind of going after that. There's a whole set of

00:16:16 Marc Inkol: understanding in terms of logistically how do you manage through, you know, getting just through the supply chain just to the shelf.

00:16:23 Marc Inkol: And then once you get on the shelf, oftentimes I think what we hear is a lot of guys, you say, well, I'm a developer, which is cool. And that's kind of got

00:16:31 Marc Inkol: you where you have to go. But you also got to start putting a different hat on. You got to say, well, how am I going to stand out in a shelf or even on a website?

00:16:39 Marc Inkol: We do testing in terms of thumbnails in terms of what has to be on the front of the pack. What's the order? Oftentimes, we do a lot of packaging. Again, we do with eye tracking.

00:16:49 Marc Inkol: And we have a thing called the rule of three.

00:16:53 Marc Inkol: And what the looking at your package less than two seconds, you only have a chance probably to say three things.

00:16:59 Marc Inkol: So you've got to say your brand, your category, and why you're different. So you really got to start to think about, how do I communicate that? What's the proposition?

00:17:07 Marc Inkol: What's really going to make it compelling to consumer when they're shopping? Again, you're now in a sea of 200 or 300 products in a section or 100 products.

00:17:15 Marc Inkol: One, how are you going to stand out? We often say that within that it's color, shape, and size in terms of a pack, that really gets attention from a subconscious standpoint.

00:17:25 Marc Inkol: And then once you get people's intention, how do you engage in that? How do you engage the product? So looking at that, trying to understand that is very vital just to get people

00:17:33 Marc Inkol: to pick it up or to consider it or to click on it online in terms of trying to go through it.

00:17:38 Marc Inkol: We live in a generation right now where just because of how we consume entertainment digitally, it's very short term.

00:17:45 Marc Inkol: We talk about one or two seconds in terms of picking up a product. And then within that, it's usually about 10 to 15 seconds at max for them to really kind of

00:17:55 Marc Inkol: explore your product and say, yay or nay. It's very critical then that you really start to keep that narrow focused, avoid saying,

00:18:03 Marc Inkol: well, it can do this, you can do this, you can do this, you can do this. And really kind of make sure that your proposition gets translated to the product, to online

00:18:10 Marc Inkol: from a description standpoint, to really kind of make sure that your selling proposition is clear. It's taking your hat, your developer hat, and then just making sure

00:18:20 Marc Inkol: you put on a marketing hat, but don't be afraid of that as much as to say that just stay true to what you are and just make

00:18:27 Marc Inkol: it really clear and then try to kind of communicate in a way that, again, it's very simple. Simple we say, even from a marketing standpoint, is better.

00:18:36 Marc Inkol: But you don't want to be too simplistic, but you want to be simple in order to really kind of be clear. Take some of that innovation skill that you've got and then

00:18:43 Marc Inkol: really apply it, but with that narrow focus going forward. I think you'll go a long way from a success standpoint because it'll help you stand out.

00:18:51 Marc Inkol: It'll help you engage your consumer the way you want to engage them. Once you start getting the foothold, then you can start layering in some other

00:18:59 Marc Inkol: expertise in order to really kind of help you along that way because I bootstrap my company and it's expensive. I know it's expensive in terms of bringing people in.

00:19:08 Kevin Mako: So don't be afraid from the marketing standpoint, just keep it clear and your proposition powerful in terms of doing that, but keep it narrow in terms of your focus.

00:19:18 Kevin Mako: Such great advice to a hardware startup because it's tough because you've spent all this time. You spend months, sometimes years developing all these internal mechanics

00:19:27 Kevin Mako: and this great intellectual property to how the thing works and why it functions the way it does and how you're

00:19:33 Kevin Mako: able to prototype it and test it and got all this great data sets out of it. and then all the cool techniques that you use to produce it.

00:19:40 Kevin Mako: So you naturally have a hundred things in your mind that you've succeeded on in that development path to get it to market. It's very hard to then distill it down.

00:19:49 Kevin Mako: What you really have to do is put yourself in the shoe of the buyer and think about the one or two primary features that they would buy your product for.

00:19:58 Kevin Mako: All the rest of the details don't matter to them, not at least in that initial engagement. Probably not even on that second engagement. I love how you put it into clear numbers.

00:20:06 Kevin Mako: You've got two seconds to hook them. Once you've hooked them, they've actually grabbed that product. You've got 10 to 15 seconds.

00:20:12 Kevin Mako: That's not a lot of time to go into all the bells and whistles of your product or into all the details.

00:20:16 Kevin Mako: Focus on the primary, reinforce the primary, get them to make that yes buying decision. Because of course, if you can figure out that magic formula, what happens in retail?

00:20:26 Kevin Mako: You end up selling more product per square inch of shelf space. The retailer wants more of your product. More people are buying it. That's talking about it more.

00:20:35 Marc Inkol: and now the snowball starts to build. So your job as an innovator from the beginning is just figure out the core basics.

00:20:42 Marc Inkol: How do you get them hooked and how do you seal the deal on your core innovation, your core feature? What I recommend on that is that write it down.

00:20:51 Marc Inkol: As he just said, just write it down and then ask five friends, what do you think of this?

00:20:56 Marc Inkol: There are 10 friends that are not really intuitively involved in terms of what you're selling. And I think that's important.

00:21:02 Marc Inkol: I think the average shopper, if they're interested in a category, great. But they don't necessarily have to be so tech savvy that they know every intimate detail that you guys do.

00:21:11 Marc Inkol: And I think that's the test because oftentimes you get into development sessions when we're doing research and we'll talk to developers. They're so passionate.

00:21:20 Marc Inkol: They're saying, well, what about this? But oh, we've got this. And then they go, you know what? The 10 second rule. Say it in 10 seconds.

00:21:26 Marc Inkol: Beyond that, most people aren't going to really kind of engage in that. So if you really want to kind of give me 15 pages of why this is cool, just understand in terms.

00:21:35 Kevin Mako: how people consume entertainment and how people consume information is it's in bite-sized chunks now and it will work.

00:21:41 Kevin Mako: So you've got to resist that urge and really be crystal clear in terms of what you're selling and why it's important. Very powerful stuff, Mark.

00:21:49 Marc Inkol: Given that we're at the top of the time here, if people are scaling their hardware business and are in that growth mode

00:21:56 Marc Inkol: or trying to get into retail or trying to scale within retail, how can they reach out to learn more about Explore Research and what you do?

00:22:03 Marc Inkol: Well, you can reach out to me directly at my email at M.

00:22:07 Kevin Mako: Incull to exploreorresearch.com or visit us at Explorer, www. Exploreresearch.com as well.

00:22:12 Kevin Mako: And we'd be happy to kind of give you any advice in terms of where we can and how we can from a scaling standpoint.

00:22:19 Marc Inkol: Much appreciate it. As always, for those listening in, I'll put all the links in the show notes below so you can just click through.

00:22:24 Marc Inkol: Mark, thanks for all your words of wisdom and bring so many years of experience to the table today for our listeners. Much appreciate it, and we'll talk again soon.

00:22:31 Marc Inkol: I appreciate it. As an entrepreneur, kind of wish everybody the best of luck. You've got to be passionate, and it's a great lifestyle. And I wish everybody just great success.

00:22:40 Marc Inkol: Much appreciate it, Mark. Thanks again. Thank you.

00:22:42 Narrator: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Product Startup Podcast, the show that teaches you what it really takes to bring your product to market

00:22:51 Narrator: and turn it into a big success. This podcast series is brought to you by Mako Design + Invent, the original and leading first.

00:22:59 Narrator: in North America to provide global caliber in-to-end physical consumer product development to startups, inventors, and small product business clients.

00:23:09 Narrator: If you're looking for product development help on your invention, head over to MakoDesign.com.

00:23:14 Narrator: That's M-A-K-O Design dot com for a free consultation from one of Mako Design's Ford Design Studios from coast to

00:23:23 Narrator: coast. Thanks for listening and see you next time.