194: The Importance of Sketch Design for New Hardware Products

00:00:00 Kevin Mako: Hello, product innovators. Today we learn from one of the leading industrial designers in the country about the importance and types of sketching for hardware inventions.

00:00:07 Narrator: This is the product startup podcast, a show to learn from top leaders in hardware product development, prototyping, manufacturing, product selling, and everything

00:00:16 Narrator: in between, hosted by Kevin Mako, the leading expert on product development for hardware startups.

00:00:22 Kevin Mako: Welcome back, everyone. Today I'm very excited to introduce Magnus Sköld to the show. Magnus is a 20-year industrial designer. He started in designing all

00:00:30 Kevin Mako: ultra-high-end interiors for private jets, for international royalty, then worked with

00:00:34 Kevin Mako: commercial airlines, then worked with Dell on a number of other products, and a bunch of other brands on top of that.

00:00:39 Kevin Mako: And then, for the past few years, is a senior industrial designer working at Mako Design. Today, Magnus is going to share some valuable knowledge for inventors,

00:00:46 Kevin Mako: startups, and small manufacturers on what product sketching is, the importance of sketching,

00:00:50 Kevin Mako: and the types of ideation sketching for the industrial design of a new hardware invention idea.

00:00:55 Narrator: Now on to the episode. This show is produced by Mako Design, the original firm providing end-to-end consumer product development services tailored specifically to hardware

00:01:05 Narrator: startups, small manufacturers, and inventors. Take your product from idea to store shelves at MakoDesign.com. Now on to the episode.

00:01:15 Narrator: Hey, Magnus, welcome back to the show. Thank you. We're excited today to talk

00:01:19 Kevin Mako: to you about sketching and the importance of the sketching phase in the creative journey of industrial design for new hardware inventions.

00:01:27 Kevin Mako: Before we get into all the tips and tricks around,

00:01:31 Kevin Mako: sketching and the types of a sketching and all sorts of great information about the importance of sketching. Just give us a bit of a background.

00:01:37 Kevin Mako: How did you get to be the success that you are now as a senior industrial designer?

00:01:42 Magnus Sköld: Well, I think the most important thing that I've tried to work on throughout my career is the ability to communicate, which I think is not just to just to kind

00:01:51 Magnus Sköld: of focus on the skill set of drawing very nice sketches or renderings, but actually utilizing sketching as a tool to help talk to clients or to talk to co

00:02:00 Magnus Sköld: -workers or any important stakeholder in order to clearly communicate the idea. So throughout this time, you know, I've been doing this for now, probably close to 20 years.

00:02:10 Magnus Sköld: So to be able to kind of hone that skill and be able to help people to understand a concept, which sometimes when you write things or you're just hand-waving,

00:02:19 Magnus Sköld: ideas and thoughts can be missed. But by actually drawing the thing, maybe in front of the client, or even just sending a sketch or showing like that something quick.

00:02:27 Magnus Sköld: I'm able to basically very clearly iterate what the client is trying to say or what I'm trying to communicate back to him or her.

00:02:33 Kevin Mako: That's so powerful. And give us a bit of a backstory as well of your history and from when you studied to today.

00:02:39 Magnus Sköld: My degree was actually started off doing transportation design. So I had fun drawing, drawing cars, basically, and come up with cool transportation ideas.

00:02:47 Magnus Sköld: And that was when I was studying in England. And so I moved to the United States to find work here. But when I did that, I ended up going a lot with our aircraft interiors and

00:02:56 Magnus Sköld: VIP aircraft interiors. And we had to do a lot of very high-end renderings and stuff like that. But a lot of the initial ideas were still sketching.

00:03:03 Magnus Sköld: From that, I kind of grew more into the industrial design side of things. And from there basically went from various different, through various different companies to where there

00:03:10 Magnus Sköld: was a lot of practical necessity to bring the ideas very much from initial sketching to do the rendering and the CAD and then all that kind of thing. That's amazing.

00:03:20 Kevin Mako: And well, you've done well over 100 plus projects just with macro design alone through initial ideation through to actual product realization, making

00:03:29 Kevin Mako: the real thing physically in your hand, which is incredible. But all of that comes down to this foundation of sketching. It's one of the initial design phases.

00:03:37 Kevin Mako: And it's incredibly important for a number of different reasons and often overlooked by new hardware startups, especially for the importance of such

00:03:45 Kevin Mako: a critical foundational phase. Just give us a high level. What does it mean in terms of sketching a new invention idea?

00:03:53 Magnus Sköld: Well, I think going from the way that we work at Mako, we will meet with the client. And even before COVID, when we have clients come more often to the office of us,

00:04:02 Magnus Sköld: so we'd have the clients seen across the table, they might come with us and say, I want X to do Y.

00:04:08 Magnus Sköld: And so while we're talking, I might sit with my notebook and actually draw the idea roughly in front of them in order to help them crystallize in their mind.

00:04:17 Magnus Sköld: Oh, when I say this, this is what that means. And we can actually have a very good conversation. That's nothing high fidelity in terms of level of the sketch quality.

00:04:26 Magnus Sköld: It's more a basic line drawing just to kind of put together a cohesive idea what the client is trying to say.

00:04:33 Magnus Sköld: Through that initial process, a very clear direction can usually be discovered very quickly.

00:04:38 Magnus Sköld: So it's immensely powerful in order to go through the project at a good pace. That's amazing.

00:04:44 Kevin Mako: Sketching is one of those things where it's kind of the first time that, that pen goes to paper on a product idea. It can be done by the inventor themselves. It can be done by a

00:04:51 Kevin Mako: designer. It can be done by really any stakeholder. But the sketch is the first time you've essentially taken your written observations, your product specifications document,

00:05:00 Kevin Mako: any leading research going into it, any customer research, competitive research, etc. You've got as much and as far as you can go on the research level.

00:05:07 Kevin Mako: But then you have to productize that idea and that innovation. And this is where the power of sketching is enabled. And this is where this is the first time you're starting

00:05:17 Kevin Mako: to visually interpret the ideas that essentially are in your head or on paper in theory. And that is such a powerful tool in so many different ways.

00:05:26 Kevin Mako: To understand the power of it, I want to go through some of the actual different types and techniques for sketching that are used in industrial design.

00:05:33 Kevin Mako: So, Magnus, just walk us through some of the different technologies, types, methods, etc. that are being used in order to put those visual sketches, initial

00:05:42 Kevin Mako: ideations onto paper. Sure, thank.

00:05:44 Magnus Sköld: So obviously, we already talked about the old. pen and paper technology has existed for thousands of years and which has been, you know, changed and perfected over the years.

00:05:52 Magnus Sköld: That's probably the most prevalent is one that I often rely on. But I mean, obviously for the last 20, 30 years, we've also now had a new technologies that come

00:06:00 Magnus Sköld: through. So most relevant, I think, nowadays is drawing directly onto a screen or a tablet using, for example, on iPad.

00:06:08 Magnus Sköld: I know a lot of designers use that. I prefer the screen tablet by it's connected to the computer and using Adobe Photoshop.

00:06:16 Magnus Sköld: And the cool thing about this is that you can layer and build upon this and actually grow the actual design is something that's a lot more refined,

00:06:26 Magnus Sköld: a lot more built up and a lot more developed. And it's also something that I think we also employ a lot more as we go further down the project as well.

00:06:34 Magnus Sköld: So it's very much can be used from the beginning, almost all the way, to where we start going into almost the CAD phase of the product. We start dealing with 3D.

00:06:43 Magnus Sköld: as a designer, we can actually think about what the form could be before we ever spend time going into 3D space.

00:06:50 Kevin Mako: That's important. There's really key three areas that you've talked about there. It's the typical pen and paper sketch, the tablet-based digital sketching, and

00:06:58 Kevin Mako: the actual 3D CAD modeling stack chain or it can even be 2D CAD modeling. They're all different techniques and methods that are used to actually put your ideas visually onto paper.

00:07:08 Kevin Mako: Now I want to lead into the importance of that. Because you have all these different technologies that are working collaborative,

00:07:13 Kevin Mako: collaboratively together using bits and pieces from each of them. It really allows to bring together the various different stakeholders in that invention idea.

00:07:22 Kevin Mako: Keep in mind that when you originally put that idea in a product specifications document. So what do you want it to do? Who do you want to work towards?

00:07:30 Kevin Mako: What are some of the key elements that you need in that initial version or initial offering of the product?

00:07:34 Kevin Mako: You then have to go through this very rich experience of integrating those

00:07:39 Kevin Mako: ideas with the different stakeholders, most importantly being your design engineers. Because you as the inventor are going to have one set and series of ideas.

00:07:47 Kevin Mako: The designers and engineers are going to have another. Keep in mind, you have many other stakeholders as well, potentially investors, potential future

00:07:53 Kevin Mako: buyers, potential partners, brand ideation, web designers, etc.

00:07:57 Kevin Mako: to ideate in on what this vision looks like. But the core is you want to actually bring all of those different stakeholders, all of those

00:08:04 Kevin Mako: different ideas, all of those different specifications onto the page and allow that page to be

00:08:10 Kevin Mako: flexible and all of these techniques that we're talking about, whether it's written, whether it's digital writing, whether it's CAD simulation, all of these have the ability to be

00:08:18 Kevin Mako: very quickly and efficiently moved, changed, edited, etc. So you can bring a lot of ideas to the table very

00:08:25 Kevin Mako: quickly and then distill that down to at least the theory of what is going to be great. So Magnus, talk a bit about your process in working with a hardware startup.

00:08:34 Kevin Mako: up specifically in extracting that idea, getting it into a series of sketches, and then working with those sketches to find the best option to make a world-class product out of it.

00:08:44 Magnus Sköld: Well, I think, as we mentioned earlier, it kind of starts with just a simple sketch interpretation of their idea. But then as they give feedback upon that, and then we provide

00:08:52 Magnus Sköld: them with further defined sketches, they can also then see these and actually pick and pull what they like from each concept and create a new cohesive idea based on what

00:09:01 Magnus Sköld: they like. And this is also a back-and-forth conversation. It's very collaborative. It's very much a conversation that continues

00:09:08 Magnus Sköld: throughout and frequently throughout the project so that there's no misunderstandings. There's no

00:09:14 Magnus Sköld: loss of direction or going down a direction for that matter that actually the client never wanted it in the first place.

00:09:20 Magnus Sköld: Very clear communications, concept sketching, rendering and all that does help with that a lot. So by the time we actually get to the actual CAD phase, personally, I will

00:09:28 Magnus Sköld: have had the chance to think through not just the outside form, but also the inside form in terms of

00:09:33 Magnus Sköld: the technology that might go into it, especially if it's a piece of electronic equipment, they may have circuit boards or speakers or fans. And thus, by the time they actually see

00:09:42 Magnus Sköld: the final sketch render or rendering, they will have a very clear idea of what it's going to look like by the time it gets into 3D.

00:09:49 Magnus Sköld: And any small changes that we may have to do in 3D, they are small changes because at that point, we have considered or ironed out any concerns

00:09:57 Magnus Sköld: or issues that we may have encountered.

00:09:58 Kevin Mako: Yeah, that's what's so powerful about the efficiency of really good design because as a hardware startup, you have to be very careful with

00:10:04 Kevin Mako: your spending. This is one of those techniques that really improves the spend because sketches are relatively inexpensive.

00:10:10 Kevin Mako: CAD becomes significantly more expensive. And as you go into detailed engineering and prototyping, it gets significantly more expensive. And then when you go to

00:10:17 Kevin Mako: production, well, it's the most expensive.

00:10:19 Kevin Mako: So the earlier that you can front load these different ideas, changes, big strokes, modifications to the overall vision or whatever it might be that's

00:10:29 Kevin Mako: improving the product or solving for a potential pain point of the problem of the product. If you can discover that earlier, it's less expensive.

00:10:36 Kevin Mako: The beauty about that is that you can put all these big ideas onto the page. And Magnus, I love how you mentioned, kind of pick and choose from them.

00:10:43 Kevin Mako: That's something that we found is very important in the ideation sketch phase of a new hardware innovation is showing different options and ideas so that we have ideas from the

00:10:52 Kevin Mako: inventor and from the industrial designer, from the electronics engineers, so that all those ideas can be packed into a few different options. Some of them will be good.

00:11:01 Kevin Mako: Some of them will not be good. And that's almost equally as important because you can look at a few different ideas here and really pick what is the best.

00:11:09 Kevin Mako: And when you figure out the best amongst a team, as you mentioned, a very collaborative effort between all of these various stakeholders, that yields to a really

00:11:16 Kevin Mako: good design direction. And all of that leads to it being much easier when you roll into that

00:11:22 Kevin Mako: actual CAD phase because now the CAD design engineers, the industrial designers, mechanical

00:11:26 Kevin Mako: engineers, electronic engineers, they have a much clear understanding not only of the product

00:11:30 Kevin Mako: specifications and features, because a lot of that will get ironed through in the sketching phase, but also how does it look? How does it feel? What is the form factor?

00:11:38 Kevin Mako: All of these little details, hundreds of details potential on any given product. All of these things weigh into being extremely important for efficiency of the product

00:11:46 Kevin Mako: as you get into that industrial design and subsequently engineering and prototyping phases.

00:11:51 Magnus Sköld: Absolutely.

00:11:52 Magnus Sköld: I mean, it is, it's a funnel, right? You have these broad ideas that you kind of narrowed down and narrowed down.

00:11:57 Magnus Sköld: So by the time you get to the final sketch or final rendering, you will have something that will make sense.

00:12:02 Magnus Sköld: And I think it's so important as a designer to be able to consider the inside as well as the outside and really flesh that out before you ever have it code CAD.

00:12:09 Magnus Sköld: Because then at that point, it becomes a very useful tool also, not just for the client, but for internal purposes too. You can talk to engineers, your likeable engineers.

00:12:17 Magnus Sköld: And they will see what you've drawn. And they will see what you've illustrated. And they too will very efficiently then be able to interpret and build

00:12:25 Magnus Sköld: in what has been described thus far.

00:12:28 Kevin Mako: When people that are new to hardware development look at these various stages, the sketches seem less important or easier or simpler, whatever else.

00:12:38 Kevin Mako: But I find it's actually the opposite. It takes a real considerable effort and intelligence to build a very strong theoretical

00:12:45 Kevin Mako: foundation of a product that is included in the sketch design. It's more difficult to do that, typically. then actually finishing the CAD model off at the end.

00:12:53 Kevin Mako: Now, obviously, there's a lot of work that goes into a CAD model. But again, if you've front-loaded the effort and have very intelligent people,

00:13:00 Kevin Mako: very experienced people in various different stakeholder capacities, especially, as you mentioned,

00:13:04 Kevin Mako: if it's a consumer electronic product, you're going to need to have industrial design, mechanical design, sketch ideation, product strategy, and electronic engineering, all working

00:13:13 Kevin Mako: collaboratively together in the actual sketch phases. So if you've done all of those pieces well, then again, everything is easier and faster, although it is difficult

00:13:22 Kevin Mako: work, it is easier and faster down the line. But that's important to understand because as a new hardware startup, you don't want to minimize the importance of those early phases.

00:13:32 Kevin Mako: You want to be involved in those early phases. You want to prioritize quality work in those early phases. This is something that you should really be

00:13:39 Kevin Mako: having fairly sophisticated, fairly senior people working on because it is the absolute foundation

00:13:46 Kevin Mako: of everything that's derived, as you mentioned, up the funnel from there, upstream from that funnel as it gets significantly more expensive.

00:13:52 Kevin Mako: Everything is derived from this foundational platform. So it's certainly not somewhere that you want to be cutting corners, cutting costs, cutting time, cutting effort.

00:13:59 Kevin Mako: It's something where you want to put your best foot forward from day one and do it right the first time.

00:14:04 Magnus Sköld: I 100% agree. Once we actually get to the level, I think, the actual cat development, usually becomes a very trouble for the experience. It's more just

00:14:10 Magnus Sköld: about executing the idea versus having to think about, oh, we didn't think about this part, or what do we do here?

00:14:16 Magnus Sköld: What do we do? There are times, of course, I'm not going to say that never happened. There are times when we do encounter that. But usually by that point, the framework

00:14:23 Magnus Sköld: which we have developed by talking to the clients and also by having this frequent communication means that the solution probably presents itself fairly quickly and with little

00:14:32 Kevin Mako: effort or a little challenge. Yep, really good points, Magnus. And I think it's so important to emphasize the various

00:14:38 Kevin Mako: different ideas that really need to be put down onto paper so that you can really come up with the best idea in the long run.

00:14:44 Kevin Mako: And that's what sketching can be so powerful in doing so that you're doing less of that during CAD. Now, know that CAD, especially the first round of CAD, it is its

00:14:52 Kevin Mako: own version of a sketch as well. It is something that now that you've got it in 3D with beautiful renderings, there's another significant round or even multiple rounds of that

00:15:01 Kevin Mako: feedback loop with all the different stakeholders. So know that it's not set in stone in the sketch phase. And that's the other side of the coin.

00:15:07 Kevin Mako: If you put good work into it and you've done it right and you've done it with quality expertise. You're now moving into the CAD phase. Know that that trend continues. It actually

00:15:15 Kevin Mako: continues into prototyping, where you're continuing to tweak and refine based on the best current

00:15:19 Kevin Mako: information at that time based on the materials that you have sitting in front of you. And that feedback loop is the difference between great design and OK design.

00:15:28 Kevin Mako: And if you continue to use that feedback loop to better the product at every stage, that will lead to a world class product at the

00:15:35 Magnus Sköld: end of the day. 100%. The neat thing about the actual part of the CAD development phase of this is that it's still very much an ongoing communication.

00:15:43 Magnus Sköld: And there are also sometimes things that designers, despite our experience in our efforts and trying to create something that we think is going to work in 3D,

00:15:50 Magnus Sköld: we of course discover that, oh, that corner or that piece right there, that I thought was going to be shaped this way. We were encountering a challenge there.

00:15:57 Magnus Sköld: But usually that's a solvable, very easily solvable problem. And then, of course, the client may review it and say, well, I like how we looked in the sketch,

00:16:04 Magnus Sköld: but then something didn't quite turn out right here. Then we're going to say, well, that's okay. We can actually make those changes.

00:16:10 Magnus Sköld: and we can adjust and we can present it again as, you know, with the adjustments that you have asked

00:16:15 Magnus Sköld: for. And, you know, basically, it's almost like a back and forth and re-reviewing of what we have

00:16:19 Magnus Sköld: done. There's the next challenge, of course, when you get to production to where we, of course, have to figure out, well, how do we get it to production?

00:16:26 Magnus Sköld: Because there's difference between a prototype and a production product. Nothing's ever set in stone until finally you're seeing it

00:16:31 Kevin Mako: on the shelf. I want to talk a bit about the layering of those rounds of sketches and feedback loop because it's important to look at it as well.

00:16:39 Kevin Mako: And it somewhat makes sense when we're talking about these different types of sketching, but looking at it in terms of like your preliminary

00:16:44 Kevin Mako: sketches are generally fairly simple and quick. And then you get into slightly revised sketches, which maybe have more coloration and more detail and more input.

00:16:52 Kevin Mako: And then from there you might get into like rough 3D or 2D CAD design, just line model sketches. And then from there, you get into

00:16:59 Kevin Mako: more significant rendered CAD models. Each of them requires more hours per let's say square inch of the actual product.

00:17:08 Kevin Mako: However, if you build that in that foundational stepping stone method, that is what leads to incredible efficiency as well as effectiveness of the design. So know that as

00:17:17 Kevin Mako: you're building out, you're sketching, don't start with a really complex sketch in the beginning to try and iron out these ideas. Start basic and work your way up.

00:17:25 Kevin Mako: It seems to make sense when you talk about it in hindsight, but we see so many different variants of the product that come to us that

00:17:31 Kevin Mako: people have spent tremendous amount of effort on something that ends up being useless if they have to just take in the time and the proper processes.

00:17:38 Kevin Mako: So what you want to do to be efficient is look at it as that pyramid model,

00:17:42 Kevin Mako: not just in the evolution of the actual specifications, but also in the evolution of the quality of the sketch.

00:17:47 Magnus Sköld: I think the idea that you can actually take it from the very broad start to kind of refined finish is so important.

00:17:55 Magnus Sköld: And the most important thing here is also to consider what the actual clients needs and to stay focused on that.

00:18:00 Magnus Sköld: I've met designers, you know, where basically it becomes almost like, I'm going to create the most beautiful thing in the world.

00:18:05 Magnus Sköld: and it's kind of like super polished and super nice. And it's like, well, okay, what is the most important thing, though?

00:18:11 Magnus Sköld: And like, what is it that you're trying to get out or what's the goal? And it's very important to keep that goal in mind so that the client gets what they need out

00:18:18 Magnus Sköld: of it as well as also what we're coming up with also makes sense to them. Absolutely.

00:18:23 Kevin Mako: That's what the process is for sure. Yeah. And for hardware startups out there are listening that are working with designers or design teams or whatever else, you know,

00:18:30 Kevin Mako: it's important to keep the vision aligned to what you see as the business of this thing. How do you actually envision this being a successful product at the end of the day?

00:18:39 Kevin Mako: Your designers should be there to enable your vision, not to change your vision. Of course, we'll give feedback, and that's part of the job.

00:18:46 Kevin Mako: We will give you the best information that we have from our experience, but it's really up to you. You are the boss. You are in charge.

00:18:52 Kevin Mako: You are in command at the end of the day of your venture and of your product. So make sure that the vision matches what your desire for the end output of the product.

00:19:01 Kevin Mako: One caveat to that, as I would say, if it's your first version of the product,

00:19:05 Kevin Mako: And you've probably heard me talk about it on the show if you've been listening to a number of episodes, but keep it simple.

00:19:10 Kevin Mako: If you do have an end vision of it that has all these bells and whistles, there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, keep that vision front row center of your business.

00:19:17 Kevin Mako: But ask yourself, what are the key steps in order to get there? And typically as a new hardware startup, the steps are to start with a relatively simple version

00:19:24 Kevin Mako: of the product or a very focused, very niche focused industry specific version of your product to start to get into the market, to actually have manufactured units and start

00:19:33 Kevin Mako: making some money. then start evolving towards that, say, five year down the road vision of the most premium feature-rich version of the product that you envision

00:19:43 Kevin Mako: at the end of the day is the perfect form of it. So have that vision in mind, but just know what are the key stepping stones in order to get there.

00:19:49 Kevin Mako: Of course, listen to all the various stakeholders, not just your designers and engineers, but listen to everybody else

00:19:54 Kevin Mako: as well. Many of them that we talked about earlier on the show, like investors, potential buyers, other business partners, advisors, etc.

00:20:00 Kevin Mako: All of them are important to guide and help you with the vision of the products. You're not blind. just following one given path.

00:20:06 Kevin Mako: But at the end of the day, you're the boss, hold core to that direction. And you will find, especially through those sketch phases, that your direction really is

00:20:13 Kevin Mako: going to be the guiding light at the end of the day to how all of the various designers and engineers and stakeholders improve, modify and revise those sketches in order to satisfy

00:20:22 Kevin Mako: that end state vision that you're looking for in a product that works in production.

00:20:26 Magnus Sköld: You were talking about, you know, MVP, minimum viable product and not trying to create something, you know, that's fresh and clean and

00:20:32 Magnus Sköld: has only what it needs and not and nothing that it doesn't. I think the experience of the designers, and I speak for all designers of Mako,

00:20:39 Magnus Sköld: is that we're all in it together to be able to create something that is the purest best version of what it is that you bring to the table.

00:20:46 Magnus Sköld: I ask all, you know, all clients to trust us. We're here to make the best thing possible and we will not steer you wrong.

00:20:52 Magnus Sköld: And of course, like you say, you know, you have the goal in mind of where you want to be. And of course, we do listen to that 100%.

00:20:57 Magnus Sköld: But we also want to help to create the best product for you. And we have the experience. We have the knowledge, we have the understanding of what products work and what doesn't.

00:21:06 Magnus Sköld: So that's the knowledge that we bring to the table as well, not just the sketching, not just

00:21:10 Magnus Sköld: the pretty pictures, but also the wealth of knowledge from our background and experience and education.

00:21:13 Kevin Mako: Very well said, Magnus. Much appreciated for you bring that up as well. I know we're at the top of the time here for this episode.

00:21:20 Kevin Mako: So thanks again for all your words of wisdom on sketching today, best practices, different types of sketching and the importance of sketching in new product development. Thanks.

00:21:28 Magnus Sköld: And we will talk again soon, Magnus. Likewise.

00:21:30 Kevin Mako: Thank you so much from giving me the chance.

00:21:31 Narrator: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Product Startup Podcast.

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00:21:41 Narrator: If you have any questions, guest suggestions, or anything else, feel free to reach out to us anytime at our email, podcast at MakoDesign.com.

00:21:50 Narrator: This show is hosted by Kevin Mako, North America's leading expert on product development for hardware startups, and the podcast is produced by Mako Design, the

00:22:00 Narrator: original firm providing end-to-end consumer product development services tailored specifically to hardware startups, small manufacturers, and inventors.

00:22:08 Narrator: Take your product from idea to store shelves at MakoDesign.com. That's M-A-K-O Design dot com. Thanks for joining and see you again soon.