Product Startup Podcast Episode 120: Build the Right Hardware Startup Team

00:00:00 Kevin Mako: Hello, product innovators. Today we learn from a lecturer and manufacturing author on the mindset and people management skills required to succeed in hardware.

00:00:10 Narrator: You're listening to the Product Startup Podcast, the show that helps bring your product idea to life by chatting with successful inventors,

00:00:19 Narrator: product developers, and hardware industry professionals. Our goal here is to get to the bottom of what makes a product successful.

00:00:27 Narrator: From initial idea to getting your product on store shelves, we're taking you step by step to

00:00:33 Narrator: build a functional product and scale your product business, hosted by Kevin Mako, one of North

00:00:39 Narrator: America's leading experts on hardware development for small product businesses. Now, onto the show.

00:00:46 Kevin Mako: Welcome back, everyone. Today, I'm very excited to introduce Karin Lindner to the show. Karen is the author of the book Make Manufacturing Sexy.

00:00:53 Kevin Mako: She was also an instructor at Sheridan College and consults many manufacturers on human resources and performance. Today, Karen is going to share

00:01:00 Kevin Mako: some valuable knowledge and how inventors, startups, and small manufacturers can understand the

00:01:03 Kevin Mako: people needed to succeed in building a hardware company and the critical mindset both you and your team needs to be the best. Now, on to the episode.

00:01:12 Kevin Mako: Hey, Karen, welcome to the show.

00:01:13 Karin Lindner: Hi, Kevin. So, great to be here. Thanks for having me.

00:01:16 Kevin Mako: Oh, thanks. I'm glad to have you on the show. I mean, many years ago, you had me keynote at your book launch. So it's been a long time. We've known each other.

00:01:24 Kevin Mako: And it's great to see you're doing well. I'm very excited for you today to talk about making manufacturing sexy, the title of your book, of course, and as well,

00:01:33 Kevin Mako: how that applies to people on mindset for all these hardware startups that are developing their products and businesses,

00:01:38 Kevin Mako: either developing their own manufacturing, becoming a manufacturer, working with a manufacturer, or developing a product to be manufactured. This topic is very important.

00:01:46 Kevin Mako: So first and foremost,

00:01:48 Karin Lindner: how did you get to where you are today? Good question. I used to work at Magna International,

00:01:53 Karin Lindner: And that's really where I discovered my passion for the manufacturing industry.

00:02:00 Karin Lindner: And I started to realize that oftentimes people don't understand each other. So the leaders have their own challenges and the workers have their challenges.

00:02:10 Karin Lindner: And so there was a huge communication gap. By the end of 2006, I lost my job due to manufacturing.

00:02:17 Karin Lindner: And I decided to start my own business solely focusing on the manufacturing industry. and help them to bridge this communication gap.

00:02:26 Karin Lindner: That's how I started. And then I posted a discussion on LinkedIn.

00:02:30 Karin Lindner: How can we make manufacturing sexy? And I got within two weeks, 450 responses to this question. Wow.

00:02:38 Karin Lindner: And I started researching because then this became really interesting for me. I always wanted to write a book.

00:02:45 Kevin Mako: I didn't really know what to write about. And the title of my book was born. That's amazing. So give us some insight to the book. What do you mean?

00:02:53 Karin Lindner: when you say, how can we make manufacturing sexy? If we would go to young people and to ask them what they want to do with their life,

00:03:02 Karin Lindner: manufacturing is not really the top thing on their mind, because there is still this image of manufacturing is

00:03:10 Karin Lindner: dirty and not interesting, but there is so much technology now involved, what is really, really interesting for young people.

00:03:19 Karin Lindner: And it's also about convincing the parents that, this is actually huge. Not every child needs to go to university.

00:03:27 Karin Lindner: There is so much opportunity in this industry. And I know you work in product development and with hardware startups.

00:03:35 Karin Lindner: Their possibilities are endless to go into this space. I always say, and I said it in my book too, we don't need more lawyers

00:03:43 Kevin Mako: and accountants because it will be very difficult for those children to find a job. It's funny you mention that because a lot of the time, I remember in the early days,

00:03:52 Kevin Mako: when I would be filling out forms online, like directories and such, and they would say, what industry are you in? Well, I'm in the product development industry.

00:04:01 Kevin Mako: We make the gadgets that are around the world for clients. And that's not a subject in so many of these lists.

00:04:07 Kevin Mako: So I would have to pick something else like professional services or some generic term because of the 100 plus industries that you could list, manufacturing or

00:04:16 Kevin Mako: product development or product engineering wasn't even on the list, although if you look around your room right now with every listener that's out there, yourself, myself,

00:04:24 Kevin Mako: we're surrounded by products. Products are incredibly important. They're a huge piece of our ecosystem and as the human race.

00:04:33 Kevin Mako: So it's amazing that you wrote a whole book to highlight that and to really show that manufacturing is special. And it really is something that,

00:04:41 Kevin Mako: especially for our listeners out there that are hardware startups and in the development space and creating something, I think never before has it been as good as it is now

00:04:48 Kevin Mako: to say that you are in the manufacturing space, that you're developing a cool new gadget. or product, that you're innovating in hardware.

00:04:56 Karin Lindner: Karen, you've been a part in that history to help make people realize that it's a very important part of the planet. Of course.

00:05:02 Karin Lindner: And I can remember when I wrote this book, I had people telling me, Karen, why are you writing this book? We develop into a service industry.

00:05:12 Karin Lindner: And I said, servicing what? We cannot just cut each other's hair and, you know, sell each other coffee. There is huge money in making.

00:05:21 Karin Lindner: things and every good economy needs manufacturers.

00:05:27 Karin Lindner: That's just the essence of everything.

00:05:30 Karin Lindner: And so I really wanted to highlight with my book about all the opportunities that they

00:05:36 Karin Lindner: are, especially also like for startup companies, what they can consider compared to how it was

00:05:43 Karin Lindner: in the industrial age and how we develop now into the conceptual age, like more creativity,

00:05:51 Karin Lindner: different way of thinking, different way of communicating.

00:05:56 Karin Lindner: That's what it is all about.

00:05:57 Kevin Mako: And it's so important to inspire people to go ahead when they have an idea, to go ahead and develop that product. Well, it's much appreciated you saying that.

00:06:07 Kevin Mako: Now, let's dive deeper into those subjects so that from your experience, your research, all the work that you've done over many, many years on this subject,

00:06:15 Kevin Mako: you highlight a couple of things that I think are very important for the listeners to understand and develop in their product.

00:06:20 Kevin Mako: One, you focus on the importance of communication and people skills within hardware startups,

00:06:26 Kevin Mako: working with either building a factory or working with factories, working with their various stakeholders, and how important understanding best practices and communication is.

00:06:34 Kevin Mako: So I'd like to jump into that. I'd also like to go into mindset because you've done a lot of work on that as well in the manufacturing

00:06:41 Kevin Mako: sector and some of the best practices around that for hardware startups to learn from. So let's start on the people side and communication.

00:06:47 Kevin Mako: Give us some of the understandings of best practices.

00:06:50 Karin Lindner: of what really works well and what people can think about in and around the subject of creating good communication in and amongst their stakeholders, primarily their manufacturing.

00:06:58 Karin Lindner: There are a lot of limiting beliefs, right? So one would be, I'm a technical person. I'm just not good in communicating.

00:07:06 Karin Lindner: So this would be one of them. And it's important to understand you cannot teach an old, dog, new tricks.

00:07:13 Karin Lindner: In my work, I have proven that you can. Anyone who is open and willing to learn communication is a skill. skill like any other skill can be learned.

00:07:23 Karin Lindner: And when a hardware startup, for example, starts to build a team, it is important to look obviously for the

00:07:33 Karin Lindner: right people. Every company wants obviously to get the right people on the team. But oftentimes the skills are not there to really find those people.

00:07:43 Karin Lindner: Now, I want to tell you what I mean specifically by that. I used to work in HR at Magna and that's when

00:07:50 Karin Lindner: I realized how many people work in HR and actually do not like people.

00:07:56 Karin Lindner: And it's true. They go in for policies, for procedures. A great way of hiring when you are in a small company is actually

00:08:04 Karin Lindner: showing interest,

00:08:06 Karin Lindner: what does the person like to do in their personal time? So, for example, if you hire, let's say, a marathon runner, I use this as an example because

00:08:16 Karin Lindner: I love to run marathons, but it shows you a lot about the personality. of the person, goal-oriented, dedicated, committed

00:08:25 Karin Lindner: to accomplish something, really resilient.

00:08:29 Karin Lindner: It has a lot to do with mindset. So you would want to look for, does the person have a passion

00:08:35 Kevin Mako: in their personal life? If they don't have that, how can they bring this to work?

00:08:41 Kevin Mako: As a startup, especially, you want to have some pretty driven people. I don't know. Would you agree with that? Absolutely. I mean, that's key. Hiring and people skills.

00:08:50 Kevin Mako: are so important, especially when you think about the product design manufacturing space.

00:08:54 Kevin Mako: I really like how you mentioned the concept of the fallacy that people say, well, I'm a more technical mind in person.

00:08:59 Kevin Mako: So I'm not really good at pitching my ideas or presenting. Well, that's a huge roadblock in a hardware startup. If you have a very technical founder and a very

00:09:07 Kevin Mako: sales oriented founder and they are not working well and communicating well together, you are missing a lot of opportunity that's on the table there.

00:09:15 Kevin Mako: And now that's just two stakeholders. You've got your design teams. You've got your manufacturing partners, your patent, attorneys, your marketing crew, maybe some finance folks.

00:09:23 Kevin Mako: You've got a whole bunch of different people here that have different styles of communication when it comes to manufacturing a new product. And it's really important to lubricate.

00:09:31 Kevin Mako: And I love how you mentioned that to get the conversation going, understand what's going on in their personal life and what they believe in and love

00:09:38 Kevin Mako: doesn't have to be the same interest as you.

00:09:40 Karin Lindner: But it certainly might tell a lot about a person to see if this is a long-term fit with what you believe your corporate culture or your corporate

00:09:46 Karin Lindner: attitude is going to be to succeed as a new product or a new manufacturer. A hundred percent.

00:09:52 Karin Lindner: And then also like asking them about the expectation so that you know from the get-go. What kind of work environment do you expect to get into?

00:10:02 Karin Lindner: What is important for you rather than going into the interview? It's like, I'm the boss. You want something from me.

00:10:09 Karin Lindner: many of the young people don't respond well to that. So they want to contribute.

00:10:14 Kevin Mako: They want to have a voice.

00:10:16 Kevin Mako: And they definitely want to tell you also what their expectations are. So it has to be give and take on both sides. That's very, very important.

00:10:25 Kevin Mako: How do you build these structure into either the hiring process or once somebody's actually in the company? And whether it's you're hiring a contractor or whether

00:10:32 Kevin Mako: you're hiring an employee, a lot of these principles, I would think, are the same. You want to have the

00:10:37 Kevin Mako: same commitment from somebody who you were hiring as a vendor to do a specific job or whether

00:10:42 Kevin Mako: you're hiring an individual person to fill a specific role that you're hiring as an employee,

00:10:46 Karin Lindner: especially as a hardware startup that only has a few limited amount of stakeholders, you really want to have that team continuity. Yeah. How do you put that together? How do you,

00:10:53 Karin Lindner: or what are some of the practices that you've seen from people who really do that well? The first thing is, is really to start thinking, what kind of team

00:11:00 Karin Lindner: do I want to build? What do I want to create. And I want to give myself as an example, when I first started my business,

00:11:09 Karin Lindner: being an entrepreneur, starting something from nothing to build it, I went out to clients and I only thought about what I thought was great.

00:11:18 Karin Lindner: And I didn't ask enough questions. This was probably my biggest mistakes with potential clients,

00:11:27 Karin Lindner: but also with people I worked with, ask questions. What is their point point, pain point. It's not about me.

00:11:35 Karin Lindner: It's all about them. This is important for hardware startups. If they want to communicate this to other people, they definitely have to

00:11:44 Karin Lindner: learn this because it doesn't help you when you are the smartest person in the room, when you have the most fantastic product.

00:11:51 Karin Lindner: If you cannot communicate this message, then this is very, very complicated to do.

00:11:57 Karin Lindner: To go back to your question, I would just say, thinking first what you want is important. And that's a challenge for many because they don't really know what they

00:12:07 Karin Lindner: want, what team they want to create. And then going from there and really see in what areas

00:12:13 Karin Lindner: would I need help and in what areas can I manage myself. When people come in, make them feel

00:12:20 Kevin Mako: special, make them feel you are about to create something really fantastic and not that you come in and say, hey, I'm just at the beginning.

00:12:29 Kevin Mako: I don't really know what I want. This is not a, it's not really attractive for people. I totally agree with that. And the nice thing about it being a

00:12:36 Kevin Mako: hardware startup is that every person that you bring on the team, whether even before you start hiring, whether it's an advisor or somebody who you're just reviewing

00:12:45 Kevin Mako: your product with for customer feedback, or whether it's a design team you've hired like us at macro design. Either way, you have very few stakeholders.

00:12:54 Kevin Mako: Every one of those stakeholders is very special to your business. They're all doing something very big overall. You're not just one in 10,000.

00:13:04 Kevin Mako: You're one in five or one in 10 of people who are hopefully following your dream, believe in your vision. And that's why they've come on board for some reason or another.

00:13:11 Kevin Mako: They're with you because they believe in what you're doing. So you need to believe in what you're doing.

00:13:15 Kevin Mako: And I would say one of the more interesting exercises that we went through in the early days of building macro design.

00:13:20 Kevin Mako: And it's something that you can do even if you haven't got to the hiring portion of your hardware startup yet or even if you're still trying to figure out what that might

00:13:27 Kevin Mako: eventually look like. I just build out a little org chart.

00:13:30 Kevin Mako: I did it when we had three people. Actually, one of our designers, Rob Colgan, we did it together, who's still with us today.

00:13:36 Kevin Mako: We built it together and we said, man, what would it look like if we actually got this firm to like a 10-person design house? To us, it was like the holy grail.

00:13:45 Kevin Mako: Like, we would never get there, but let's dream. Let's put it on paper because we were two and a half people at the time, really, let's say.

00:13:52 Kevin Mako: And now here we are a 30-person team years later. and it was amazing to see that just putting that small, simple org chart, shining star,

00:14:01 Kevin Mako: not only did it give us some clear and directional vision, but it allowed us much earlier to start making decisions that helped make that happen

00:14:08 Kevin Mako: or to improve that as we realized that slightly changing things would make it better over time

00:14:13 Kevin Mako: so that we had a better shining star to continually shoot towards as we perpetually improved.

00:14:18 Kevin Mako: And all of these things come back to feedback, which is something I guess you find very important,

00:14:22 Kevin Mako: And especially when you mentioned, ask the questions, which I think is so brilliant, because it's the

00:14:27 Karin Lindner: easiest way for you to get engagement with minimal effort. Just simply ask questions of the people around you. Let them respond to let you know what they're interested in.

00:14:37 Karin Lindner: What makes them tick? What do they appreciate or not appreciate about your product, yourself, and or your business? 100%.

00:14:44 Karin Lindner: And, you know, what you just said is just such a great example. Thinking first, what do I want? Building from their division.

00:14:51 Karin Lindner: Like here's one thing what I would say could be done differently.

00:14:56 Karin Lindner: Build the org chart upside down. So let's say Kevin Marco is at the bottom.

00:15:03 Karin Lindner: How does he serve his management team and how do they serve the next group of people?

00:15:11 Karin Lindner: So basically what this does is really, it's often talked about this kind of servant leadership style.

00:15:17 Karin Lindner: But when you have it in the org chart like this, rather than show. to the people, I'm at the top and you are just at the bottom. Or when people say to me, people

00:15:27 Karin Lindner: work under me.

00:15:28 Karin Lindner: I'm like, nobody works under you.

00:15:31 Kevin Mako: They work with you. This is like such a great concept of thinking about, does my team have everything they need to succeed?

00:15:41 Kevin Mako: May this be training, may this be all the tools they need to have in order to help you to fulfill the vision, what you have as the business owner.

00:16:19 Kevin Mako: That's amazing. And that's such an easy thing that anybody could do today. It's really a fun exercise as well.

00:16:20 Kevin Mako: product. But keep in mind that once you build a great product, you've got many other things to

00:16:24 Karin Lindner: think about. People are always going to be a big part of that, which is why this topic is so important. I appreciate having you on the show for this.

00:16:31 Karin Lindner: So in and around the theory of people, you also talk a lot about mindset and how that can also factor into all of this to create a great hardware organization.

00:16:40 Karin Lindner: Can you talk a bit about some of the high level strategies in and around mindset and some best practices that hardware startups can think about?

00:16:47 Karin Lindner: 100%. I would say the most important thing is to think about the things what you want, rather what you don't want.

00:16:55 Karin Lindner: That sounds very basic, but really, 70% of the population think about what they want to get away from,

00:17:03 Karin Lindner: rather than about what they want to create.

00:17:08 Karin Lindner: And it again comes back down to this exercise of figuring out what I want. And it has to do with positive communication, not only

00:17:17 Karin Lindner: to other people, but in your mind. And when you start something, as you know, well, Kevin

00:17:23 Karin Lindner: and I have done it as well, you have to build this resilience when you have those crappy days, how you can manage yourself to

00:17:32 Karin Lindner: talk yourself out of it. And a lot of it has to do with the story. You tell yourself about yourself, about your success story and where you

00:17:40 Karin Lindner: want to bring your product. So easy to say, oh, it doesn't go well and I have to go back in a job and it doesn't work out to have those kinds of.

00:17:49 Karin Lindner: of thoughts or really become aware of the thought process that you have, everybody can learn that.

00:17:56 Karin Lindner: And I want to give a personal example again when I thought, for example, oh, I don't get this client because my company is too small.

00:18:05 Kevin Mako: Then I would say out loud, here's my bullshit story again. Of course I will get the client because I'm the best.

00:18:12 Kevin Mako: So it's really about changing the thought process consciously and most people are not aware what's going on

00:18:21 Kevin Mako: in their head and how easy they manipulate their own success. And sometimes they are just two feet away from gold and they give up. That's incredible.

00:18:30 Kevin Mako: I mean, there's a lot to unpack within what you said.

00:18:34 Kevin Mako: The whole glass half full thing is not just a nice line to say, I have seen this firsthand. I have got to work on

00:18:43 Kevin Mako: well over a thousand hardware projects. And you can very much see the difference between the type of designers and engineers, inventors, ideators, companies, you

00:18:53 Kevin Mako: name it. The team that's working on the project, if they are the pessimistic sort, the focus on the problem sort, although it may

00:19:01 Kevin Mako: seem logical in engineering and somewhat as framed in engineering. You do want to search for the problems, but you're not searching for the problems to identify what they are.

00:19:09 Kevin Mako: You're searching for the problems to figure out what the solutions are.

00:19:13 Kevin Mako: So solutions are really what your mind should be focusing on, not dwelling on the problem itself.

00:19:21 Kevin Mako: And although that seems maybe obvious or logical, I completely agree with you, Karen, I see this quite regularly. A lot of the time with hardware startups, they get frustrated.

00:19:30 Kevin Mako: They dwell on the what ifs. They dwell on the negatives. And they don't focus on the positives that are coming out of it.

00:19:37 Karin Lindner: And many of those positives are huge, equity values for their actual product.

00:19:41 Karin Lindner: Overcoming a hurdle, overcoming failure is incredibly valuable to businesses. Learning from that variable is extremely valuable.

00:19:50 Karin Lindner: So focus on solutions, glass half full, optimism. And I can tell you from firsthand experience looking at many, many, many projects,

00:19:57 Karin Lindner: it almost always unanimously leads to a better result than those who are focusing on it in complete negativity. 100%.

00:20:05 Karin Lindner: And, you know, just so funny, my book actually has two four. words. I don't know if you remember. One is for optimists and one is for pessimists. So I thought

00:20:14 Karin Lindner: I speak to everyone this way. But what you just said about failure, and I mean, this is an important

00:20:20 Karin Lindner: topic because I think every entrepreneur has dealt with this. I reframed the word failure. Failure is really only there when you give up.

00:20:29 Karin Lindner: So I call it feedback. I get feedback what works

00:20:33 Kevin Mako: and what doesn't work. And if it doesn't work, I have to look for a different way of doing it. So this could be like getting a client, getting a meeting with someone.

00:20:43 Kevin Mako: Okay, this didn't work. Like, how can I become more creative to get in front of the person?

00:20:48 Kevin Mako: This is really huge because you wouldn't believe how many people are afraid of failure and you've got to make friends and failure your friend.

00:20:57 Kevin Mako: Those are the stepping stones to get where you want to be. That's such powerful mindset.

00:21:02 Kevin Mako: And of course, that comes back around full circle to what we were talking to originally with people.

00:21:06 Kevin Mako: If you're looking to attract people who are good communicators, who are positive, who are encouraging each other, who are encouraging discovery through failure, then

00:21:16 Kevin Mako: that is a big part, particularly in a hardware startup.

00:21:19 Karin Lindner: And it really doesn't matter if it's your part-time accountant that you've hired all the way through to your creative industrial designer.

00:21:25 Karin Lindner: All of them need to have this kind of theory of improvement, perpetual growth, learning through failure, finding opportunities, finding the solutions, as

00:21:35 Karin Lindner: opposed to dwelling on either the past or on the negatives.

00:21:38 Karin Lindner: And through that, if you have that collaboratively as a team, that'll exponentially accelerate everything from your development cycle to your marketing materials, to the

00:21:45 Karin Lindner: growth of your financing, to the business, everything else that comes along with it. 100%. The people who tell me they make no mistakes, I always tell them, this shows

00:21:54 Karin Lindner: me that you don't try anything new. Because if you try something new, it's impossible not to make any mistakes.

00:22:00 Karin Lindner: I don't know about you, but I certainly cannot say I've never made any mistakes. It's just so important for all those startups that listen

00:22:09 Karin Lindner: today that have big dreams. I actually want to share something which I think could be super relevant.

00:22:16 Karin Lindner: I'm sure you have heard about smart goals, but have you heard about dumb goals?

00:22:22 Karin Lindner: So I think for those startups, they should consider to really get into dumb goals. So what does them stand for?

00:22:31 Kevin Mako: Dream driven.

00:22:33 Kevin Mako: The D stands for dream driven. driven. The U stands for uplifting.

00:22:39 Kevin Mako: The M stands for method friendly and the B stands for behavior

00:22:45 Kevin Mako: driven. And to really think about those kind of things, I think every inventor, every startup, it starts with a dream.

00:22:55 Kevin Mako: That's what they should keep in mind. The dreams to put them into reality that's so important, where would our world be without the dreamers, right?

00:23:03 Kevin Mako: Absolutely. You've got to find a North Star. because again, back to people, that's what's going to attract people and keep them there.

00:23:09 Kevin Mako: Your dream, your vision, that's what you're building. It doesn't matter that you're not there yet.

00:23:13 Kevin Mako: I love the example you gave of the client where people say, and this happens all the time

00:23:17 Kevin Mako: in hardware startups where they say, you know what, I'm never going to land that distributor. Their orders start at like a million dollars in order. I'm still small time.

00:23:24 Kevin Mako: I'm just getting off the ground, right? That is absolutely not the case because what you have is you have an innovative product.

00:23:29 Kevin Mako: You have something that they don't have on their shelves. You have something that's unique to the market. you have your own story that's behind it.

00:23:36 Karin Lindner: You have some sort of unique branding, positioning. And of course, if you've done Karen's people job well, you've got a great team of people surrounding

00:23:43 Karin Lindner: you that's helping execute on this dream that you've got. So all of this wraps into a big bow to say, keep all of these initiatives front

00:23:50 Karin Lindner: and center in your thinking, especially in a hardware startup, because it's not just about designing the product.

00:23:55 Karin Lindner: There's all these bits and pieces that come in surrounding it to actually build that model, whether you're looking to license

00:23:59 Karin Lindner: a product, manufacture it yourself, manufacture it with a partner or anything else, all of these things. still matter to achieve whatever goal it is that you're shooting for.

00:24:08 Karin Lindner: Like one thing I also would like to stress, of course, I'm a trainer and a coach. But really, I think every person should work with a coach.

00:24:18 Karin Lindner: Just think about sports teams, right? Think about Roger Federer as a coach. Why? He's one of the best tennis players in the world.

00:24:26 Kevin Mako: Why does he need a coach, right? The same is so true for business people. And I have seen it over the years, more and more people really invest.

00:24:34 Kevin Mako: in a coach, not only necessarily for skill development, it's all about mindset to help them to get

00:24:41 Kevin Mako: at the top of their game and to stay at the top of their game. As soon people start to build their team, it can become pretty lonely.

00:24:49 Kevin Mako: If you have nobody to bounce ideas off, that's also something worth considering for every starter. It's worth the money, 100%.

00:24:59 Kevin Mako: I love the idea, you know, mentorship, coaching, support. It really is important. Things that seem fluffy are actually some of the most important things,

00:25:08 Kevin Mako: the more successful of an entrepreneur that you talk to, the less that they will tell you that they know.

00:25:13 Kevin Mako: Now, of course, they're extremely knowledgeable in many things, but they will purposely surround

00:25:17 Kevin Mako: themselves by people in each of their specific categories that are far more experienced than they are.

00:25:22 Kevin Mako: And that is what creates a truly inspiring leader, is somebody that can recognize that they are forever learning, that there is forever going to be field matter expertise that

00:25:32 Kevin Mako: is far outweighing

00:25:33 Karin Lindner: there is in a specific segment or category and then leaning on those people and listening to

00:25:37 Karin Lindner: them, assuming that you are not the expert on all of these different things and trying to weigh in

00:25:42 Karin Lindner: in a team framework, which is why I love so much about you telling us about the exercise of flipping the org chart on its head. Very powerful.

00:25:50 Karin Lindner: We always looked at it too. We call it kind of the flat org chart at our firm where everybody is a valuable team member. It doesn't matter what the seniority or the rank is.

00:25:58 Kevin Mako: Everybody has unique insight that is very valuable if you're willing to open up your mind and listen to all those things and apply that forward to your business.

00:26:07 Kevin Mako: Yeah, every person is an expert in something. And even when I go in training sessions or with my coaching clients, I always learn something from my clients.

00:26:16 Kevin Mako: And if you have this mindset to be open, you can learn from every person. It doesn't matter if this is a shop floor employee or a customer,

00:26:24 Kevin Mako: really developing those listening skills and learning. What are the challenges? And this will help anyone succeed in what they want to do.

00:26:34 Kevin Mako: I remember a really interesting stat about drivers. It was something along the lines of, and I don't remember the exact numbers, but 80% of drivers think

00:26:42 Kevin Mako: they're the best of the best 20% of drivers.

00:26:46 Karin Lindner: It just goes to show you that it's human nature to assume that you are more of an expert than you think you are. So if you can recognize that

00:26:54 Karin Lindner: in yourself and be humble about it, then that allows you to listen more and to really reflect

00:27:00 Karin Lindner: on the values of what other people are bringing to the table, which will, as you've seen in your research

00:27:06 Karin Lindner: and as you've seen dealing with all sorts of people, is incredibly valuable for the long-term performance of your product. And we're talking financially. What seemed like somewhat

00:27:14 Karin Lindner: spiritual or fluffy concepts really trickle down to the end of the day to more successful companies in general.

00:27:21 Kevin Mako: Oftentimes we are legends in our own mind, right? And that's what we have to remember, to step back, to reflect a little bit, not to doubt yourself.

00:27:30 Karin Lindner: There's a big difference between self-doubt and reflection.

00:27:34 Kevin Mako: Self-doubt is not good, but reflection is so important. Every time when I work with someone, I think about what could I have done

00:27:42 Kevin Mako: better? And I'm sure when I get off the call with you today, I said, I should have said this, I should have said that. But those reflection moments are critically.

00:27:51 Kevin Mako: It's important not to beat yourself up over it. When you you don't do something, just learn from it. Karen, much appreciated for you being on the show.

00:28:00 Kevin Mako: And for anyone that wants to learn more about these topics, check out her book, for sure. You can buy it pretty much anywhere at this point. I've seen it all over the place.

00:28:07 Kevin Mako: Yeah, it's on Amazon. It's also translated now into Spanish. That's great.

00:28:12 Kevin Mako: Karen, thanks again for being on the show. Much appreciated. Thank you so much, Kevin.

00:28:16 Narrator: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Product Startup Podcast, the show that teaches you what it really takes to bring your product to market.

00:28:25 Narrator: and turn it into a big success. This podcast series is brought to you by Mako Design + Invent, the original and leading firm in North America

00:28:34 Narrator: to provide global caliber in-to-in physical consumer product development to startups, inventors, and small product business clients.

00:28:42 Narrator: If you're looking for product development help on your invention, head over to MakoDesign.com. That's M-A-K-O Design dot com.

00:28:51 Narrator: For a free consultation from one of Mako-design's 4-4. Design Studios from coast to coast. Thanks for listening and see you next time.